Re: Ed Miller\'s Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...
 

Teddie,

I've obviously got up your nose a bit here. But I want to make two things very clear:

1. I try to make it clear than, and I quote, "I must be misunderstanding something". I'm not blaming Ed Miller. Although I concede in my frustration it may have sounded like that, I went to great lengths to make it understood that I thought the fault probably lay with me.

2. I'm asking for advice here. Not trying to annoy people. You haven't offered much advice, which is fine, but don't come on here and get mad.

There are reasons I played the hands you critisise as awful. Please enlighten me to the error of my ways. (seriously).

And for anyone else who is wants to show a beginner the error of his ways, here is my thinking....

Hand 11: I'm not convinced limping with a small pair on occassion is bad play, even for short stacks. Consider that people know exactly what I'm doing - raising preflop with a strong hand, then going all in on the flop. Everyone knew that's what I was doing, so why not mix it up every now and then so I'm not totally transparent? My logic is limping with a pocket pair is a little change to the standard play I have been employing for the last hour and will keep them guessing a tad. If someone raises preflop (unlikely on these tables, which is another consideration), or I don't hit a hand on the flop (likely) then I fold (which is another thing people are not accustomed to seeing me do on the flop). So all in all, it costs me 50c to be - at-least a little bit - unpredictable. And if I hit a hand, as in this example, I have a strong hand worth betting with. Yes, this is my little "variation" on Ed's strategy, but I am unconvinced it's a bad one. If you want to show me otherwise, I'm all ears. But just saying "awful, that's not what Ed said to do" isn't convincing me.

Hand 10: Yes, awful. A mistake, but I'm a novice. Learning the ropes. Throw me a bone.

Hand 9: Well give me a hint then! I really don't know what to do in the big blind. Are you and phydaux saying I should fold when I can see the flop for free? Seriously?

Hand 7: MY logic here is really a mix between Hand 9 and Hand 11. I have a marginal hand, but not too bad. And I can probably see the flop for free. My goal here is to be a teeny bit unpredictable instead of constant raise-flop-all-in. With this hand I am planning to fold the flop, unless the flop hits me and looks harmless enough, which would be a very rare occurance. So I'm just trying to be a little unpredictable at the price of a 50c BB. But in the rare place where the flop actually hits me really well, why not put my money in there while I am almost certainly holding the strongest hand?

Re: Ed Miller\'s Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...
 

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, this is the last time I (or anyone else) is going to respond to a whole list of hands. The rule of thumb on the strategy forums is to keep it at three hands a day or less.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops sorry mate. I had no idea.

Re: Ed Miller\'s Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...
 

You may not be blaming Ed Miller, but as your thread title seems to suggest you are following his strategy, it is very easy for readers to assume otherwise...and then when you describe your hands and are not following his strategy in many of them.....

Phydaux's reply pretty much says everything you need to know about those hands, and i would second his suggestion that you switch to the other forum as they will be able to give more detailed help.

Your "variation" seems to go against the principles of Short stack play in general. If you limp with poor hands or are caught out of position by a late raise with a hand that isnt particularly strong you are going to have to fold or risk bleeding off lots of chips on the flop. Remember, the aim of the strategy is to put the money into the pot while you are a strong favourite against your opponents range...you dont want to be dominated.

It is to keep things simple...if you want to bluff or trap opponents then you play with a big stack..short stacking is about being predictable...(playing within a smaller range of hands than other people are playing).

Perhaps you need to read up on implied odds..in fact
i suggest you read up on Millers strategy again, as it should explain some of the things you are questioning.

As for hand 11 - what are the odds of you hitting a set or better on the flop?

With a short stack, on the few occasions you hit, you risk not making enough from other players to make it +EV.

check fold the flop if it doesnt help.

Re: Ed Miller\'s Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...
 

Thanks for you help.

What does +EV mean?

Re: Ed Miller\'s Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...
 

EV stands for Expected Value.

Some plays have a negative expected value. Craps & Roulette are all -EV. The trick with poker is to recognize situations where you have positive expected value and then bet to maximize your earn.

You don't need to "mix it up" when your short stacking. You mix things up so that your opponent can't exploit your play. One of the features of a proper SSS is that it is nearly unexploitable. Yes, you opponent knows exactly what you're going to do when you enter a pot with a big raise pre-flop. His problem is that, because of your short stack, he doesn't have any implied odds. His only options are either to have AA/KK pre-flop, or to fold.

And because your short stack doesn't offer your opponents any implied odds, it doesn't offer you correct implied odds to play speculative hands, either.

Think about it this way - A small pair will flop a set one time in eight. Say you limp with a small pair in MP, the button raises 3bb and you call. You miss your set on the flop and have to fold. This happens eight times. Then you call a bet with a small pocket pair, make your set and double through.

It has cost you 24bb to try and hit a set the eight times you missed. And the time you hit, you double your stack. But you're a shortie! Your stack is only 20-30 bb to begin with! So by playing a small pair for a raise pre-flop, your best hope is to break even. And if you hit your set, shove and your opponent folds, then you lose money.

And if you limp with your small pairs and fold to a pre-flop raise them you're just pissing your money away by limping.

Believe me, I totally sympathize with you wanting to play real poker. The SSS is boring. Unless you're playing eight tables, it's really boring. So don't play Shove. Buy in deep and play poker. It's much more complicated, but it's also much more fun. You'll learn more. For a while you'll lose more, too, because real NL poker is hard.

But if you buy in short, stick to the SSS as outlined.

Re: Ed Miller\'s Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...
 

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You can move over to the FR NL forum whenever you like. They'll make fun of you mercilessly for playing the SSS.

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For precisely that reason, I don't think trying to discuss SSS on any of the NL forums is useful, unless things have changed greatly while I was gone.

Note the false assumption here: playing deep stacks is advantageous if you're a better deep stack NL player than most of your opponents. Why on earth would you assume that about a beginner, even a beginner who posts on a pretty good site? Because there used to be even worse players in all the online games, once upon a time?

Then again, some people will earnestly argue that you should start out playing deep stacks so as to learn every aspect of NLHE all at once. I'd love for my opponents to learn NLHE this way, since I'm sitting in their game and can be well-compensated for giving out lessons.

Re: Ed Miller\'s Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...
 

While I'm getting owned today. 15m down and I'm down $25 playing strict SSS. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Thanks for the post there phydaux. My rational for playing SS is just as an introduction to "winning poker". Then I'll gradually expand, playing bigger stacks and more complicated strategies.

Half way through Harrington Vol 2 now - so picking up a clue or two.

Re: Ed Miller\'s Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...
 

If you're still playing NL50, a SS is $10. You're down 2.5 short buyins (or 0.5 full buyins, which is what most people mean when they say to prepare for swings of 10-20 buyins). That's frustrating but nowhere near the worst downswing you'll experience in your poker career.

Re: Ed Miller\'s Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...
 

Hand 11: As people have said, you cant set mine with the SSS. EV is explain in Small stakes holdem book.

Hand 10: Fair enough a mistake, but you made the same mistakes yesterday and said you were busy with something else and it's the only time you have ever done it. I get the feeling you probaly get bored having to follow a strict SSS and lose your discipline and then you lose your stake.

Hand 9: Flop for free? What? You called a EP raise with A9s, thats complete garbage. You will never be profitable if you continue to call raises with dominated hands.

Hand 7: Again, where are you getting the idea your seeing a free flop?! You are calling $0.50 to see a flop, thats not free. The only time you see a free flop is when your are the big blind and its limped to you and you can check it.


I havent read Ed Miller's SSS but from what i get from your opinion's on how you played the hands you dont see to understand it yourself. I'd recommend re-reading it a few times until you do.

You also dont seem to have the discipline too play it it correctly. It seems you get bored, see a pretty hand and go "oh sure i might limp it, its only $0.50".

The way your playing it at the momemnt you will never be profitable playing with a SS, so i'd recommend dropping down to micro limits depositing enough so you are full rolled for the smallest limit and grind it up from thre with a full stack.

Re: Ed Miller\'s Short Hand Strategy on Full Tilt...
 

ugh, i cant stand short stack players.

its not really playing poker.. its playing cook-book poker.
wait for high % hand, raise.. push flop...
hit-n-run. I could teach my cat to do that.

while the SS player occupys a seat with the mini buy-in, screwin up the action, someone with some real money cant get in.

you pull that nonsense in the real world and someone would gut you and leave you lying in the sewer.

Do yourself a favor. Learn to play poker.
Drop a level or 2 or 3 until you are comfortable, buy-in for the Max, and play.

The hit-and-run kiddie game isin't teaching you ANYTHING useful.

-hyp