Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

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I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

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QFT. I usually get goosebumps towards the end.

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I didnt taint the poll by voting, since it was restricted. I sing ours and the Canadian anthem when its played, even though Im not Canadian. They are both very moving and reflect on the best of Western values.

As far as Owsley goes, I respect his right to free speech. As a veteran I also hope he pulls that in the midst of a group of veterans and they teach him a life long lesson about the practical limits of free speech.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

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The American national anthem, the Star Spangled Banner, is a rather nice poem that celebrates anti-imperialism,

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It was written concerning the War of 1812, so it's not celebrating anti-imperialism, it's celebrating invading Canada. And that's something I think we can all agree on celebrating.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

Used to be #1. Now more like #2. I liked Kaj's response -- the irony of the crowds so willing to flush our freedoms straight down the crapper for a hollow promise of safety, even as they sing about "the land of the free and the home of the brave" has become just a bit too distracting for me to really appreciate the beauty of the song anymore.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

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I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

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It's weird to remember how very important I used to think it was as a kid. To have even questioned 'my duty' to do this was unthinkable. It seems the majority of adults feel this way still today. Wath % of adults would you estimate feel this way?

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

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I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

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I used to think the exact same way.

I now cry a little inside when I hear about the land of the free and home of the brave. Those terms have been so bastardized, it's just sad. We as a people have squandered such promise to be an example of all that can be good in the world. No other society in history had the opportunity we did as the last superpower standing, and we flat out blew it, and are blowing it more every day. Watching my fellow countrymen sing those words almost makes me angry that they can be so naive. (Actually, many aren't naive at all, they know full well what they're supporting and don't mind it one bit; e.g., Copernicus and FelixN.)

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There is a big difference between "not minding it one bit" and recgonizing that the real world sometimes involves compromising in order to survive. Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I think.

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So you admit that you don't mind sacrificing freedoms and principles for perceived security. Which was the point.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

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I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

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I used to think the exact same way.

I now cry a little inside when I hear about the land of the free and home of the brave. Those terms have been so bastardized, it's just sad. We as a people have squandered such promise to be an example of all that can be good in the world. No other society in history had the opportunity we did as the last superpower standing, and we flat out blew it, and are blowing it more every day. Watching my fellow countrymen sing those words almost makes me angry that they can be so naive. (Actually, many aren't naive at all, they know full well what they're supporting and don't mind it one bit; e.g., Copernicus and FelixN.)

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There is a big difference between "not minding it one bit" and recgonizing that the real world sometimes involves compromising in order to survive. Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I think.

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*shoves words in mouth*

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Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

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Lack of patriotism is the reason Congress looks more like Parliament than it does the Congresses of the 60s through 80s

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You mean the Congresses of the 60s thru 80s that were funding numerous secret wars, a full-scale war against a people who were zero threat to us which cost hundreds of thousands of lives, a hyped up struggle against a former superpower that history shows was more afraid of our aggression than we were of theirs, numerous smaller conflicts, and then entrenched the military-industrial-congressional complex to such a degree that we never truly have been in a peacetime mode since?

Well, sir, I can do without that kind of patriotism from my leaders.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

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I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

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I used to think the exact same way.

I now cry a little inside when I hear about the land of the free and home of the brave. Those terms have been so bastardized, it's just sad. We as a people have squandered such promise to be an example of all that can be good in the world. No other society in history had the opportunity we did as the last superpower standing, and we flat out blew it, and are blowing it more every day. Watching my fellow countrymen sing those words almost makes me angry that they can be so naive. (Actually, many aren't naive at all, they know full well what they're supporting and don't mind it one bit; e.g., Copernicus and FelixN.)

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There is a big difference between "not minding it one bit" and recgonizing that the real world sometimes involves compromising in order to survive. Don't put words in my mouth or assume you know what I think.

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*shoves words in mouth*

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He has told us what he thinks in hundreds of posts. And these posts make it clear that he is on the side of reducing freedoms and going against our principles in order to enhance our security. See his recent thread about justifying allying with and arming dictators like Saddam Hussein. You can't make posts like this every day and then pretend we're in no position to judge what you think on this subject.

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

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I voted option 1. I love the national anthem. I think it's very moving. At the time it was penned the banner represented the fight against oppressive government, and was not a symbol of it. That's how I interpret it.

I will NOT, however, pledge allegiance to a [censored] piece of cloth. I can't even understand how a patriotic statist can buy into that. WTF? It's ridiculous.

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Uh wow, did not expect this. Agree 100%. I stand for the anthem, I never did the pledge in school, seems oddly close to the third reich to me.

I'd much rather say a pledge to ideals then a construct, even if that construct came out of those ideals.

Cody

Re: Strange Question for ACists and libertarians
 

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I'd much rather say a pledge to ideals then a construct, even if that construct came out of those ideals.

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That's well put. I might have to use that (with citation). [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]