Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

OK, so you're arguing that math geeks make a principled or aesthetic stand against silly behavior, and suffer socially as a result? And that less intelligent people don't, because they're just spinal cords with impulses who can't observe the silliness of their behavior? I find myself agreeing with that on some level.

But ultimately I think it comes down to this: If you understand life to a reasonable degree, you'll realize that most of life's meaning is in social relationships. And most social skills aren't skills, as such, but having your heart in the right place.

Like understanding that other people have feelings and needs just like yours. Like believing other people are basically good, and worthwhile. Like caring that others are comfortable and feel included. Like not wanting to impose your will on anyone else's freedom or happiness. Like having the courage to be assertive.

For an intelligent person, the only real skill element to successful social interaction is the ability to read people's moods, and a limited amount of general social knowledge. These can be learnt with time, unless you an autism like disorder.

So ultimately I think it's less about being "uncomfortable with silliness" and more about lacking one or several of these traits. Which I think may have been what andyfox was getting at with his superiority comment.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

Oh but I agree with most of what you say. Of course you should do what is necessary to achieve your goals regardless of whether you think they are silly. I came to that conclusion many many years ago. I'm just saying that is a bit harder for some (not me any more) if the silliness slaps you in the face.

The truth is that my goal is to teach as many of the nerdy people as possible to put aside their discomfort and learn the illogical conventions. Many don't now because they think it is sort of insulting to the airheads who like it. ("Sure I'll help you with your trig homework. You are a nice person." rather than "Screw the homework, lets go out tonight, I'll let you cheat off me on the test tomorrow") But I've been over that for 35 years. If most geeks learn to get over that they will take over the world.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

"Of course you should do what is necessary to achieve your goals regardless of whether you think they are silly."

whether or not something is judged silly doesn't depend on incontrovertible logical dictates. no social convention is inherently 'silly' or 'illogical' and they may only be judged so when additional suppositions are made. math geniuses aren't especially discerning social critics - those you're referring to (a modest %, i'm sure) are socially dysfunctional for reasons unrelated to their aptitude.

and for what it's worth, all experimental evidence thus far indicates there is a very positive correlation between social acculturation and intelligence as measured by IQ tests through the entire range.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

David,

It seems to me that we should make a distinction between people that CAN'T exercise rudimentary social skills versus those who elect not to. The former is sometimes referred to as "mind blindness" and stems from an inability to read social cues that might tip one to the appropriate response. Oftentimes the response itself might be trivial, but nevertheless these people have a diminished ability to process certain types of information. If this capacity is very diminished, they may be diagnosed as autistic.

Of course, there are lots of people that elect to ignore certain forms of social etiquette. Some people might "correctly" deduce that certain social graces aren't worth their time and energy. Others might be too narcissistic to see the forest for the trees and won't recognize that observing certain social rituals will ultimately be to their benefit. Finally, you have plain old vanilla boredom, which can make it difficult to relate to your immediate environment.

How does intelligence tie into all of this? I imagine that very bright people (and very dumb people) are more likely to be bored in mixed company; boredom in its extreme forms can certainly make one appear to be anti-social.

On the other hand, I tend not to be so sympathetic to the argument that "intelligent" people are more able to "see through" the importance of social rituals. I'd wager that many of your fifth grade classmates were just as capable as you were of detecting that the whole business about cuffless pants was silly on some level. Perhaps in fact they were more aware of the social consequences of their choice.

However, I do think there is something more profound going on. Specifically, I think that there is a relationship between intelligence at certain tasks like complex mathematical and creative pursuits, and being able to marshal a higher percentage of the brain's resources toward this task. In other words, intelligent people have the ability to concentrate very deeply on something; perhaps this is part of what makes them intelligent.

I know that when I'm concentrating very intently on something complex, I find it relatively easy to shut off other stimuli in my environment. For example, I might have left the TV on for several hours without having any recollection of what program was on. Or if someone else was in the room and trying to ask me a question, I might not "hear" their question until the second or third time they asked it. At these times, my behavior can arguably resemble that which you might see in someone with autism. Perhaps even I've temporarily become "mind blind". But, I'm able to drift into and out of this frame of mind with relative ease, whereas an autistic person is not.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
know that when I'm concentrating very intently on something complex, I find it relatively easy to shut off other stimuli in my environment. For example, I might have left the TV on for several hours without having any recollection of what program was on. Or if someone else was in the room and trying to ask me a question, I might not "hear" their question until the second or third time they asked it. At these times, my behavior can arguably resemble that which you might see in someone with autism

[/ QUOTE ]

That eerily describes me.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

you are smart enough to think that random every day stuff is stupid but then get mad when kids make fun of you?

getting upset about teasing sounds pretty freakin dumb to me.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...idSklansky.jpg

Nice shirt [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Btw, you should watch the movie "A Beautiful Mind", because their portrait of Nash shows a guy who had difficulties following the accepted ritual of talking to women. It's quite funny.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, I tend not to be so sympathetic to the argument that "intelligent" people are more able to "see through" the importance of social rituals. I'd wager that many of your fifth grade classmates were just as capable as you were of detecting that the whole business about cuffless pants was silly on some level. Perhaps in fact they were more aware of the social consequences of their choice

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get your meaning here. Even if what you say is true doesn't that make it even sillier? I can't deal with social situations in where I'm required to lie or required to not say what everyone else is thinking (but trying not to say). I just find it so distasteful that I'd rather be kicked out than participate. I don't know if that makes me smart, stupid, socially inept, etc, but I realize what's being asked and that I should do it to fit in, but I just find it too stupid and too ugly to join in. Even being shamed by the group because of it is not as bad as the self shame I feel for participating. It's very similair to the when I stopped being Christian. I mean I liked being in the group and everything, but I just couldn't do something I thought wasn't correct. It's a dealbreaker. Sometimes even in trivial situations when you get punished in a non trivial way. It can't be just me who thinks this way. Way back when they tried to force religious conversion after conquering people and they put you to death if you refused, some people still refused. Some people are just incapable of saying something they don't think is right is correct, even if they'll be killed for it! I don't think they did it because they wanted to be [censored] or were socially inept, they just found it too distasteful and would rather die. I know the religious aspect of this clouds their ultimate reasoning for their decision, but even so I think you can see the similairities between this and other social situations.

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh but I agree with most of what you say. Of course you should do what is necessary to achieve your goals regardless of whether you think they are silly. I came to that conclusion many many years ago. I'm just saying that is a bit harder for some (not me any more) if the silliness slaps you in the face.

The truth is that my goal is to teach as many of the nerdy people as possible to put aside their discomfort and learn the illogical conventions. Many don't now because they think it is sort of insulting to the airheads who like it. ("Sure I'll help you with your trig homework. You are a nice person." rather than "Screw the homework, lets go out tonight, I'll let you cheat off me on the test tomorrow") But I've been over that for 35 years. If most geeks learn to get over that they will take over the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said, some of these individuals who have these social problems do not understand the importance of social skills and their social status. Some who comprehend how impaired social interactions can be, but learn to master and use them to succeed socially and satisfy the human social hierarchy desire that was discussed earlier in the thread. More that don't understand the level of thought being discussed here and may in many cases have a good status or be labeled 'popular' socially with no self-comprehension of this (probably not involved much in this forum or type of thread).

Re: Math Talent, Asperger\'s Syndrome,\"Social Skills\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in. Likewise for most of the more trivial (but highly noticed) social skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to have been a victim of what Paul Graham calls "the popularity rat race". He's written an essay which very eloquently elaborates on the topics you bring up, see

"Why Nerds are Unpopular"

Many of his other essays on his website are also extremely good reads, and he has ideas which seems to "gel" with yours, being a science- and logic-oriented libertarian.

Graham is an interesting character, not the least because he uses his wealth to fund small upstart tech companies with the smartest young people around.