Two Plus Two Newer Archives - 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

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- - 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=206686)

Re: 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

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Oh, I think preflop is a fold too, but I think almost everyone, including OP, knows that.

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Even I know that... and I'm rooting for cap the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

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I still don't see why you abandon the steal beacuse you have a decent draw.

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Look at the action after your initial 3bet. At what point do you admit that just maybe Villain has a real hand and trying to bluff him off is just spewing?

Preflop is ok though I'd rather just call (but possibly float the flop if it goes HU). Flop is an easy call. What's really interesting is if the turn is the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

ncboiler: The thinking behind preflop is that we're in position against someone who is probably raising light and will be forced to c/f a lot of flops.

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I realize that but this is a marginal at best play.

Re: 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

Wow Harv I didn't know you had it in you...you pull this crap against me too?

I think you should probably just call the flop. And the turn if you don't hit...just remember to spike the river.

OTH - I don't think raising the flop is really bad if BB stays in (cuz you have good pot equity aginst 2 opp) OR BB folds and you slow MP2 down (get him to call and check turn) But since neither of those are certain or even likely slowing down is probably the better play.

Re: 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

Some very good arguments here for flat calling the flop. So of course I raised. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] My reasoning was as follows:

-MP2 has a real hand, obviously, after he capped it preflop. But what real hand? After my preflop 3-bet & then raising the flop 3-handed despite his cap, pretty much every hand he could have, other than QQ, is going to be at least a little scared by this flop. And even if he does have QQ, he could easily decide for a turn c/r rather than 3-betting the flop...especially if BB coldcalls again. I think the only times I get 3-bet are when he's holding AA/KK & testing the waters, or when BB connected & check/3-bets.

-I'm not worried about trying to keep BB in the hand at this point. He's an unknown who coldcalled a preflop 3-bet, which generally means one of two things: either he's got a big hand, which he will probably call 2 more on the flop with in this huge pot, or he sucks at poker & will call 2 more with whatever he's holding. On the other hand, if I do fold him out this might also buy me some outs...it's still entirely possible that MP2 is holding AK here, in which case folding out a made hand by BB (something like 88, for example) could buy me an additional 6 outs in the hand.

-I'm going to get a free card by raising a lot. If, on the other hand, I do force BB out of the pot with a flop raise, I'm going to take the pot down with a turn bet vs. a thinking player relatively often, too....he will probably lay down AK (obviously not suited to diamonds) to a turn bet, and will also fold JJ/TT fairly often I think.

That's what I was thinking at the time, or rather what I thought about afterwards when figuring out why I raised the flop almost instantaneously during the hand. Reading the responses here, perhaps flat calling would have been a better play. At any rate, on to the turn....

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, MP2 caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.16 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero...?

To make things a bit more interesting, because I think this decision is pretty obvious, does your action change if BB had folded the flop? Or if somehow BB had called 2 & MP2 then folded?

Re: 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

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MP2 is a known good winning player. Why do you want to go heads up against him expecting to out play him? This is not a long term winning strategy.

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That is exactly the kind of player that I want to end up heads up against, with position, while holding a hand like 42s. Because he is a good, thinking opponent, he is never going to put me on 42 when I 3-bet him preflop. Ever. Even if I make a play like this against him and show down the hand, he still can't put me on something like that...just realize then that it's possible I'm holding some crap suited cards. It's not only an attempted resteal, but against a player like this it also plays into the metagame...he will take note of this play when/if I show my cards down, and once he knows I'm capable of doing something like this it will enter into future hands that we play against each other (and any guy that I have hundreds of hands on is obviously a regular multi-tabler, so there will be many future hands together), and will probably cause him to make some FTOP errors against me in those hands.

Doing this against a bad opponent is just stupid, because that opponent is probably not going to fold postflop when the board misses him, even badly, and is not going to take a note on my play when I do show down 42s after 3-betting preflop.

A good player, however, will be capable of laying down a big ace when the board misses him, or a medium pocket pair when an overcard or two shows up. Meaning that, against a good, TAG, thinking opponent, I don't actually have to make a hand to win the pot; and when I do, the benefits extend well beyond this one hand.

And yes, this is obviously not a winning long term strategy; just something that I might try once every 1,000 hands or so when the conditions warrant it.

Finally, there's the psychological aspect of it for the current session. My goal at any table I sit at is quite simply to put the fear of God into all of my opponents when I enter a pot. With the style of game that I play, I want my opponents to be scared to see a flop against me, I want them to fold rather than face continued aggression from me (especially when they're holding a better hand or one with proper odds to continue against me), and I absolutely don't want them to have any idea what I'm holding on any given hand. A play like this, if it goes to showdown & especially if I win it at showdown, is going to go a long way towards achieving those goals for me. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

So raising got you a free turn card AND BB stayed in anyway - giving you good pot equity with your FD. This is great demo of why to always take the more aggressive line in close situations.

Now with 2 opps you gotta take your free river. But if you got heads up with MP2 I would fire again on the turn - give yourself 2 ways to win. But if you got heads up with BB I would say probably just check since he doesn't seem like the folding type.

Re: 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

I assume there was a four bet cap preflop? If not, make sure to put a fifth bet in. Make sure you get all the value possible out of your hand preflop.

Re: 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

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Oh, I think preflop is a fold too, but I think almost everyone, including OP, knows that.

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I don't fold this.

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You always cold call 2 or re-raise in CO with 24s? Wow.

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Uh...heh. I just looked back at the OP and realized that I had assumed that hero had posted a CO blind because that's the only circumstance where I'd play this hand. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] I'd actually need 89s here generally.

Re: 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

This is a huge leak in my game that I am currently trying to fix. I know I am better than 90% of the people I play against, but I always seem to be a slight winner, bc I do things like this. I try to out play the 1 or 2 good players at the tables with very poor hands which leads me to playing even poorer post flop, when in reality I should be trying to stay away from them, with marginal hands let alone 42s, and exploit my much bigger advantage over the weaker players.

This isnt even a steal attempt for villan so that adds more strength to his hand than if he was on the button.

ok a side from that rant, the flop is an easy call, you want to keep BB in and you have very little or no fold equity.

Re: 3/6 Play Along On A Resteal Attempt

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Turn: (9.16 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero...?

To make things a bit more interesting, because I think this decision is pretty obvious, does your action change if BB had folded the flop? Or if somehow BB had called 2 & MP2 then folded?

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Interesting.

I agree AA and KK are raising here to find out where they are before the price goes up. Making him on JJ, TT, AK, AQs, or QQ. Or some junk.

BB calling again makes me afraid, not only of a monster but of a better flush draw.

Checking and taking the free card would seem to be the right play.

My gut still says bet, though. A c/r almost certainly means trips, cuz I don't see anyone in this pot with 86. A call makes a draw by BB likely. JT? A9? I'm a little concerned about being caught in a pickle here... if you miss MP calls down and wins, if you hit BB made a bigger flush. A check telegraphs your draw though, something I don't want to do.

What kind of folds might make a bet worthwhile? I dunno if its there. Screw it. BET!