Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

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I think ten WSOP braclets DOES qualify a poker player of that stature to make a judgment about a book....ON POKER!


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Nonsense. That's like saying that being a major league batting champion qualifies you to be a major league manager.

There are a ton of winning poker players who cannot explain how or why they win.


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Have you SAT across from these guys? Have you ACTUALLY PLAYED against these guys? I have and let me tell you...if their analytical abilities are held in low esteem then I'd like to meet the players held in HIGH esteem.

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The ability to make correct decisions at the table has no necessary correlation to the ability to analyse the game clearly and intelligibly in writing. It is also totally unrelated to the ability to read and critically evaluate a book.

I read a lot of poker books, and I maintain a good sized library on the subject. The players/writers you cite are not "keepers".

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

When *TT* said he had read it and gave his review, it didn't change my opinion at all. I figured he knew a lot about the material and it was old stuff to him. I have heard good things about Navarro since Annie Duke first met him. He has impressed top pros with his knowledge time and time again. I don't even know who *TT* is, but I guess he is a decent player, top pro, author, I have no idea. But if it is all basic stuff to him, that doesn't mean it is not going to be helpful to the me. I still look forward to checking it out. I don't even play live poker much, I just find the material interesting coming from a member of the FBI.

The arguments that the top pros that liked Navarro's material on the subject are bad writers or those who had best sellers had books written during the poker boom or whatever seems a little extreme. Assuming the material in the book is the same as the material presented at the Hellmuth camp a while back and discussed with a number of professional players, I think it is relevant to mention that these top players have been impressed with what Joe Navarro had to say on the subject.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

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*TT*:

Are there tells in Navarro's book that are NOT discussed in Mike Caro's book? If there are none then it is obviously not worth a read. If there are, would you please share three with us? Thanks.

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Its been a while since I've read Caro's book, and I had challenges with it as well due to his "value" of the tells (I forget how he rated the value of each tell, but I do recall it being laughable at the time even though there was some modicum of truth to the concept). At the same time I felt that the chapter on high and low confidence displays may have been one of the most revealing new categories in the discussions on tells to date but its not ground breaking work IMHO.

I think the greatest value in the book was the discussion of the psyche to someone who hasn't taken a basic psychology class in college, the physiological foundation to the tells, the reason why these tells exist. But as I stated if you already have this fundamental knowledge then there will be a much lesser value to the reader. The book essentially encourages observation, which is a good skill to develop as a poker player of course, but is not something that you can necessarily learn from a book (at least not from this book IMHO, I recall reading texts in college many years ago that did a better job of attempting to develop observational skills) it is an raw animalistic ability that some people have, and others don't. Its a survival skill, I could be wrong but I don't necessarily think its a learnable skill.

The problem with tells is that there is no one size fits all scenario. For example on page 76 Joe points out that ankles wrapped around a chair is a sign of restraint; that must mean I'm very often exhibiting this tell at the poker table because for me its a sign of fidgety legs - I wrap them around the chair to keep them from bouncing up and down. I guess that what I'm saying is that most of these tells are often mistaken for signs of something that they are not, only through careful observation and knowledge of your opponents behavior can true tells be discovered - and 9x out of 10 the tell is something much more subtle than the bitting of a lip, the wrapping of legs around a chair, or the steepling of an opponents hands (Mr. Navaro declares the most honest part of the body to be the feet, if this is true, and I am not claiming it is or isn't as I am not an expert in the field, then I must be a chronic lier!).

Additionally where Mr. Navaro (and Mr. Karlins his ghost writer) error is the innate trust in tells. Hand reading and your opponents betting patterns are a much more reliable tell than the way your opponent sits yet little is discussed about the fundamental poker skills within the book. Karlins himself believes the knowledge of the tells discussed within the book will give the reader a significant edge (preface - page xxii), personally I think the edge of the player who can exploit a player's belief in tells is much stronger.

In closing I don't want to give the appearance that I am slamming this book, on the contrary.. I am giving an objective opinion for someone with a similar skill set as my own. I'm sure there will be some people who can gain a lot from this reading material, but at the same time I believe there a far too many others who will misuse the advise given within because they lack fundamental hand reading skills yet rely too much on the "dark art" of tells.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

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I'm not saying that TT hasn't a right to make an assessment of the book

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You did not say that in so many words. But you took "exception to "TT's" remarks" and strongly implied that he was unqualified due to a jewelery deficiency.

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sniff sniff.... the truth is out. I don't have enough jewelry. Does that mean I must turn in my metro-sexual card? I feel like such a poser now!

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

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Navarro's revelations on tells will bring you new awareness of how to play more effective, winning poker.


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Learning how to read hands and betting patterns, a skill set that few know how to apply properly, is how to play more effective winning poker. Tells might add a small 1-3% edge to a winning player's ability at most, lets not try to pretend its something greater than that. With that said, there is great value in gaining any edge possible no matter how small... but overstating the value of edge would be misadvising the reader.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

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As an author on Phil and Joe's book I must take exception to "TT's" remarks. When he says "If you have a basic understanding of psychology, logic, and the standard commonly known tells then the book isn't worth reading..." then I guess T.J. Cloutier, John Bonetti, Antonio Esfandiari and other pros--who took pages of notes when Navarro made his presentation (and praised his work) must not have known much of these topics!

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These are your words, not mine.. but yes its possible. Its also plausible that they were winning poker players for a long time due to other reasons besides their ability to find tells.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

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Your claim that I "..obviously know very little about poker publishing..." My friend, I assure you, I know a great deal about publishing in general (20 published books with major NY houses) and poker publishing specifically (4 poker books published, three by major NY houses).

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Having lots of other books published and having two (not four as you corrected in your other post) books somewhat related to poker, plus what you have posted here makes it clear to me you know very little about poker publishing. Let me be specific with one example. Your Lyle Berman book is put out by the publisher who as far as I can tell pays the smallest royalties in the business. In general, any author who does a book with us will make about five times as much as he will make from that particular publisher. What else do I need to say?

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I also have authored over 200 articles, was a columnist and contributing editor for Gambling Times for a decade, am the Associate Editor of the Journal of Gambling Studies and a contributor to popular magazines and newspapers worldwide.

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Well, even though I don't contribute to these magazines anymore, I think I had about 600 articles published, including many in Gambling Times back in the 1980s. What you don't point out is that getting an article published in one of these magazines by no means implies that you know anything worthwhile about gambling. Many of them would publish almost anything. A good example are the articles that GT published (again back in the 1980s) by Gail Howard on charting the lotteries so that you could determine which numbers were more likely to be hit. (See the essay "Lottery Fallacies" in my book Gambling Theory and Other Topics for more discussion.)

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Yes, Mason, you are not the only person that publishes on this site

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We have had many publishers come on this site. That's because this is the place if you want to promote and sell books. Why else would you be here?

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There were many books that just "happened to come out" at that time: Phil's book made it because: (1) it was well written; (2) it was published by a major house (HarperCollins) and (3) it was authored by a person who had a proven track record AT THE TABLES.

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I don't think your Point 1 is accurate, and I do know. There were no other poker books that came out at that time. They didn't start to appear for another six months. I agree with your Point 2 in terms of the English -- Andy Glazer did a good job -- but in terms of information it has some severe problems. And as for Point 3, he was certainly presented that way.

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Any of your books hit #1 lately?

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Actually, yes. Both Harrington on Hold 'em: Volume III and No Limit Hold 'em: Theory and Practice made it into the low thirties in terms of Amazon rankings, and both of these books were released on May 30, 2006. We also expect to release six books (and possibly more) in the next 12-15 months, and I anticipate at least four of them to make the Amazon top 100. Also, most of our books retail for $29.95 and are paperback. So having the type of sales we have had at those prices is amazingly good, and I think you'll agree. (For comparison, the Hellmuth book is $15.95.)

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My comment about sitting across from these guys was in relation to the statement challenging their analytical skills, not their writing ability. Read my quote again before you use it incorrectly, please.

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I do personally know most of these people, but the posters mainly only know them by the books they have read, and that's the way they'll be judged by most people here. So there was nothing incorrect in my statement.

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I"m sorry, but I think your Grand Poohbah "nickname" says it all; you might own the site and think you're the cat's meow but I assure you, when it comes to professionalism, you could do well to look in a mirror before you begin reflecting on other people's qualities.


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First off, I didn't pick that name. It was originally given to me by others associated with the administration of this site without my knowledge. But let me explain something to you and let me make this very clear to you. Our purpose at Two Plus Two is to only do top quality stuff. We could care less how someone like you might think of us on a personal basis. My advice on behaving professionally, which you were clearly struggling with, was designed to help you, not me.

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You state: "These forums (and this website) is now the premier driver of poker book sales. Nothing else is even close." Documentation, please? Geez, can we have a little less ego here? I'm sure reviewers in major poker magazines and other media outlets might be a bit, well, shaken by their lack of influence when facing your dominating position in the market. By the way, speaking of poker magazines, you might want to read the review of our book in the September issue of Cardplayer. Then take two aspirins and write me in the morning. LOL!

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Well, we're now approaching 1,500,000 total books sold (and again the vast majority of them are at $29.95 retail. But it
should be very easy for you to see this. Just go to Amazon and look at sales ranks. Also, go to Borders, Barnes & Noble, and Books-A-Million, etc. and look at what poker books are on the shelves. And if you want to go a step further, talk to some of our authors. You can also go to to www.alexa.com and www.big-boards.com and look at our statistics. There are no secrets here. One of the things you'll see is that Card Player is laging way behind us.

Also, big-boards will show you that we now get over 20,000 unique visitors every day, and Alexa will show you that they stay on our site far longer than they do on any other poker information site.

By the way, if your book got a good review in Card Player I have no problem with that. In fact, I hope your book is as good as you claim it is.

And finally, there is one other reason which should be obvious to you that my claims concerning our success are accurate. You showed up here to dispute comments that an anonymous Internet poster said about your book. If this place wasn't extremely important, why would you do something like that?

MM

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

Hi Scorer:

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Mason bring the 2plus2 books out soon.

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We'll get them done as soon as we can. Right now, the authors are hard at work. Then it will be our turn.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

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I guess it comes down to who you want to believe...and, in my book, I tend to listen to PROVEN, WINNING poker players when evaluating the value of a poker book.


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I believe TT. He is a poker player and is involved in the publishing industry. If you find yourself in disagreement with TT in a discussion regarding poker or publishing, it is wise to go and recheck your facts because you are pretty much garaunteed to be wrong.

Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
 

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I guess it comes down to who you want to believe...and, in my book, I tend to listen to PROVEN, WINNING poker players when evaluating the value of a poker book.


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I believe TT. He is a poker player and is involved in the publishing industry. If you find yourself in disagreement with TT in a discussion regarding poker or publishing, it is wise to go and recheck your facts because you are pretty much garaunteed to be wrong.

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I'm just stating an opinion SB, I'm not laying down hard fact this time so believing me/not believing me is not an issue except in the eyes of Dr. Marvin Karlins, PHD.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]