Re: BLIND QUESTION -- strongest hand you will fold
 

If people will not fold ace high then your goal is to teach him that if he does have ace high he better not bet the turn.

Re: BLIND QUESTION -- strongest hand you will fold
 

folding a pp here is a massive mistake imo.

Re: BLIND QUESTION -- strongest hand you will fold
 

It is impossible for it to be a massive mistake.

Re: BLIND QUESTION -- strongest hand you will fold
 

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It is impossible for it to be a massive mistake.

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You can play for set value alone.

Re: BLIND QUESTION -- strongest hand you will fold
 

You are getting 3.5:1 to call. You are 8:1 to flop a set. That means every time you flop a set you have to win 2.25 BB to break even

Re: BLIND QUESTION -- strongest hand you will fold
 

Since you can't play for set value alone, you have to play for set value plus bluff plus winning unimproved. Let's say on average I win 1.5 extra BB when I flop a set which seems reasonable to me. That means I am missing 0.75 BB somewhere along the way when I am playing simply for set value. I have to think that over those 8 times I call with my pocket pair and I don't make a set that I can win 0.75 BB postflop. I think this is a fairly tall order with a small pocket pair out of position. Generally, your hands will go like this:

check-raise the flop, bet the turn they fold. win 1 BB
check-raise the flop, bet the turn they raise you fold,
you lose -2 BB.
check-call all three streets you win +2.5 BB
check-call all three streets you lose -2.5 BB
c/r flop bet the turn and river they call wi th ace high you win 3 BB
bet-all three streets they hit against you and call the whole way you lose 3 BB

and you never fold the best hand. i think if you think about these scenarios, it is bad to call with a pocket pair if the person is at all aggressive.

now switch it around so you are in position. the scenarios are a lot better for you, mainly because you can play the turn better. in position, you get check-raised on the flop you can throw it away. you have initiative so you can get them to fold the better hand with a flop bet sometimes (a larger pocket pair on a smaller board).

i am getting bored of writing this. maybe you all disagree but this sort of thinking makes sense to me. i used to fold suited connectors in this spot too, but lately i have gone back to calling with them again. i am not sure which is better, or that it matters at all really. i think calling with a small pocket pair is a clear mistake here, though. but the suited connectors is a little more up for grabs because you can withstand a little more action and you have way more outs if you are behind. the little pocket pair if you are behind, you are pretty much screwed. a suited connector will often have enough two pair plus backdoor draws to make it play better.

Re: BLIND QUESTION -- strongest hand you will fold
 

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You are getting 3.5:1 to call. You are 8:1 to flop a set. That means every time you flop a set you have to win 2.25 BB to break even

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we make more.

Re: BLIND QUESTION -- strongest hand you will fold
 

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You are getting 3.5:1 to call. You are 8:1 to flop a set. That means every time you flop a set you have to win 2.25 BB to break even

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we make more.

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I disagree. Set != win at showdown, plus your biggest pots are going to be against higher sets. If you can rely on villain to put in 4+ BB postflop with a 1 pair hand then go ahead and call, but I don't think this is anywhere near true for most decent players.

Surf

Re: BLIND QUESTION -- strongest hand you will fold
 

[ QUOTE ]
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You are getting 3.5:1 to call. You are 8:1 to flop a set. That means every time you flop a set you have to win 2.25 BB to break even

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we make more.

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I disagree. Set != win at showdown, plus your biggest pots are going to be against higher sets. If you can rely on villain to put in 4+ BB postflop with a 1 pair hand then go ahead and call, but I don't think this is anywhere near true for most decent players.

Surf

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I think there is almost always 2BB going in by villain. Chances are he has a somewhat decent hand on the flop because of his UTG raising range. Overpair vs set situations are especially juicy and I`d expect to win >4BB here. I`d really be interested in hearing what others think cause making more than 2BB postflop on average seems like not at all close to me. Set vs set happens very very rarely. Must be 1 time out of 100 IF villain has a pp too. What happens more frequently is flush vs fh.

Plus: We of course have decent equity on many flops without having hit so we certainly sometimes continue.

Re: BLIND QUESTION -- strongest hand you will fold
 

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If you can rely on villain to put in 4+ BB postflop with a 1 pair hand then go ahead and call, but I don't think this is anywhere near true for most decent players.

Surf

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4BB should be pretty standard action for one pair considering where the guy raised. the strongest one pairs should easily average around 5BB.

calling down a flop c/r is 3BB. 3betting the flop and calling down a cap is 4, calling the flop and popping the turn is 5. raising the turn after a flop cap is 6.