Re: Steve Badger\'s advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with Steve Badger's advice is that it implies that it's basically impossible to win money from early position.

[/ QUOTE ] In the article he tells people to limp-re-raise in early position with AAxx. Any sensible player would figure out that AAxx would have to win a lot of the time in order to justify re-raising someone. Therefore it is possible to win out of position.

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It's not even debatable, it's that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is not even that simple, it IS debatable.

Re: Steve Badger\'s advice
 

The problem with playing only aaxx for a reraise in ep is that your opponents will abuse you. For instance in 6-max:

hero limps (2.5 bb pot), mp limps (3.5 BB), button pots (9 bb), hero repots (27 BB pot), mp folds... button can either call with wraps and double pairs with position or he can fold weak kk/qq type hands that dont fare well. Even if villian calls it is 13.5 BB more to call. This means that only 18 BB are commited preflop, which means hero still needs to play a pot OOP without automatic stack scenario.

Re: Steve Badger\'s advice
 

I think i should have put 19bb above.

Re: Steve Badger\'s advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
...hero repots (27 BB pot), mp folds... button can either call with wraps and double pairs with position or he can fold weak kk/qq type hands that dont fare well....

[/ QUOTE ] At least you have got the pot heads up which is how everyone would want it with AAxx.

On PartyPoker, 10-handed, let's say you are UTG, UTG+1 pots it, 2 or 3 fold to the button and button pots it, you repot it and you have a repotting war - you will go all in more of ten than not at a 5-10 2000 table (starting with 2000).

[ QUOTE ]
This means that only 18 BB are commited preflop, which means hero still needs to play a pot OOP without automatic stack scenario.

[/ QUOTE ] If that is imminent, do not play out of position with such a great hand.

Re: Steve Badger\'s advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
On PartyPoker, 10-handed, let's say you are UTG, UTG+1 pots it, 2 or 3 fold to the button and button pots it, you repot it and you have a repotting war - you will go all in more of ten than not at a 5-10 2000 table (starting with 2000).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, 4-betting preflop is great with AAxx. In my example I gave a situation where hero is HU on flop. Lets say we modify the scenario so pot is 58.5 BB and 3 way on the flop. Hero still has 81 BB. Do you check fold all non-Ace, no flush draw flops? How does your system address the tough situations that are part and parcel of playing omaha? If you can not produce answers in these situations, then you are missing opportunities.

I would also be interested in hearing how this strategy works on the party poker real money tables.

Re: Steve Badger\'s advice
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero still has 81 BB. Do you check fold all non-Ace, no flush draw flops? How does your system address the tough situations that are part and parcel of playing omaha?

[/ QUOTE ]
First, everyone says that part of winning PLO is winning in EP - fine. Now let's NOT mutate this discussion to this new reference http://www.doylespokerroom.com/poker/omaha_poker.cfm
but somewhere in there you'll find a section on early position raising. It's called raising from up front or something like that. Now I'll continue with Chucky's most recent scenario in answer to his question. By now, you may or may not think you are pot-commited. If you are, then you lose everything unless your opponents pot-raise you back and you are convinced you are beat. Either accept that you will lose a lot re-raising from ep but stand to win a lot when you do pre-flop or don't play any hand from there. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

P.S. If you want to discuss Lyle Berman's PLO chapter, start a new discussion on it but not in mine please. Over there you can criticise whether it is better than Badger's or Ribbo's or mine or your system of play and whether it's too weak and passive or whatever LOL [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Steve Badger\'s advice
 

Could you have gotten more off-track here? The part of the advice where Badger suggests LRRing AAxx when short is the only part of the advice that most people here wouldn't have a problem with. That's completely standard. The reason people don't like his advice is the way he advocates playing every hand but AA, namely limping and folding to a raise. He basically states that it's impossible to play hands profitably out of position.

Now, the thing about this strategy is that there's a maximum yield to it. It's zero. Badger himself states that "the main reason to play hands out of position is to get other people to play hands out of position". This means, he only ever plays them for metagame reasons and doesn't even believe that his strategy is profitable from those positions; just that it loses less than other people's strategies.

Well, guess what, tons of us out there are profiting from early position. Therefore, our strategy is better than what Badger himself says is the best he can hope for. Therefore, there's no debate. The strategy of playing 15-20% of your hands by limp-calling or open-raising is better than Badger's strategy.

I was going to try to prove this using my database, but I don't have a very large sample of FR hands, and then when I tried to make an analogous point about hands from the blinds, I found PokerEV's sorting capacities woefully inadequate. You can sort by how many seats off the button you are, but not by whether you're a blind or not, so the only way to get enough data to be relevant would be to manually compile the number of BB's won or lost from each position with each number of players at the table by working backwards from hands and BB/100 and then recompiling and the whole thing seemed like a little more work than I was up to tonight.

Re: Steve Badger\'s advice
 

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a solid player who understands the game and has deep chips will eat up anybody from any position with AAKK.

[/ QUOTE ] Not if Pete Fabrizio is up against me. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Steve Badger\'s advice
 

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...3579 in position should not be able to eat up AAKK.

[/ QUOTE ] Why not? In hold 'em you can play suited connectors in position and eat up AA. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Steve Badger\'s advice
 

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It's true in the sense of 'if you can't win out of position don't play out of position.' Sort of like game selection on a hand-by-hand basis.

[/ QUOTE ] Not quite - sometimes you have to donate some money to get a lot more back.