Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

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Exactly, the guy with the 43 made a marginally poor preflop call and played his hand great postflop. If this is an example of how fishy the play is, I'd find a better game.

-Michael

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Marginally poor? It was a rather large margin. Personally, I don't defend my big blind with a 3-4, even if its suited, that hand is so dominated. You gotta hit the board at least once, and hope that the button raiser in position doesn't hit at all.

If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

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Al - your foot is deeply in your mouth right now, trying to teach a bunch of shorthanded and HU limit hold'em experts what optimal blind play isn't wise - you will be proven wrong every time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] And yes, the BB played the hand better than you did.

34o is a marginal call at worst pre-flop vs a button who is stealing greater than 31% of the time. A big blind defense hand generally needs 35% equity vs the stealer's hand range. If your attempting to steal less than 30% of the time then you have bigger problems than understanding blind play therefore we will assume your stealing at least 30% but probably closer to the range of 40% or 50% of the time when its checked to you on the button.

I suggest you read Stoxtraders fantastic book Winning in Tough Hold'em Games for more information. BB should be defending with this hand range vs a 40% stealer:


Pairs

22+

Suited

A2s+
K2s+
Q2s+
J2s+
T2s+
92s+
84s+
73s+
63s+
52s+
42s+

Offsuit

A2o+
K2o+
Q4o+
J7o+
T7o+
96o+
86o+
75o+
65o
54o


A player who steals 40% of the time on the button has a range of 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T8s+, A2o+, K5o+, Q8o+, J9o

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I read it, its a great book, thats why I steal raise with my hand. BB defender had a 43o, which is not on the chart, so I guess that hand doesn't have the 30% equity.

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43s is on the list..why don't you defend with it? 54o is; hence why calling is only marginally poor instead of the error of large margin you exlaim it to be. Instead of continuing to huff and puff as all you wanna be "live pro" ogres tend to do when confronted by the "math types" with simple proof backing up arguments; how about you produce a simple mathematically based or logical counter argument proving that calling 43o is an "error of large margin"?

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

Not to mention everyone, the obvious tilt that Al incurred after this hand. Which in my opinion is worth the pf call to begin with.

Seriously though, I can't figure out if threads like this are aimed at creating tougher games or the posters are just rubbing in their good table selection.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

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I read it, its a great book, thats why I steal raise with my hand. BB defender had a 43o, which is not on the chart, so I guess that hand doesn't have the 30% equity.

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So when you read a book do you normally keep your eyes closed? Because thats how its coming across with your responses in this thread so far - we are trying to help you here - if you prefer to be left in the dark thats fine, just let us know and you can continue to live life happily without knowing that your understanding of optimum blind play is significantly flawed.

1) 35% equity is where you should defend, thats the proven and accepted optimal range based on expected value. The key is to open and tighten your range vs the villain's steal range. Your confusing the concepts of equity and stealing range.

2) This list doesn't come from the book, it was created using an equity simulator.

3) 43o offsuit is just one pip below the optimal calling range of 54o. In the long run its possible that you loose less from 43o than 54o, we are splitting hairs here. The reason why you defend with 34o isnt to proffit, its to reduce the long-term loss of hands like 34o in the BB. I'd rather loose .4 BB/hand than .5BB/hand over the course of 5,000 trials anyday, theoretically thats a savings of 500BB over the trial period.

4) Your looking a bit foolish, you would be better off saying "thanks, I just learned something today" than argue a point that you already lost.

5) Your post-flop play in the hand was 10x worse than calling with 34o in the BB vs your likely steal range.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

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Seriously though, I can't figure out if threads like this are aimed at creating tougher games or the posters are just rubbing in their good table selection.

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sounds like an add saying "sit to my left, I want to donate money" to me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

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If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

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lol that seems like a good strat to me.
dave

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Thats why short handed mid-high limt live games used to be so good...unfortunatly many players learned how to defend.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

This thread is a perfect illustration of why so many players say, "but I play tight, and they always suck out on me..... is it just bad luck, or just bad play?"

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

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If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

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lol that seems like a good strat to me.
dave

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Thats why short handed mid-high limt live games used to be so good...unfortunatly many players learned how to defend.

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luckily most of them still dont know how to play optimally post-flop!

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

I've never seen the borg 10-20 LH that silly, but you've talked me into a road trip this weekend....thanks.

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

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If I'm the blind, I say "let's play the next hand, take my ten bucks."

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lol that seems like a good strat to me.
dave

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Thats why short handed mid-high limt live games used to be so good...unfortunatly many players learned how to defend.

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That's why I call in the BB with 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] against your steal raise every time, Lenny!

Oh, no, wait...I 3-bet with that hand and crack your aces! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Is there anything more ridonkulous than the mid-limits in AC?
 

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I've never seen the borg 10-20 LH that silly, but you've talked me into a road trip this weekend....thanks.

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Either you've picked bad tables or you haven't played in the Borg limit games much. Games "that silly" are the rule, not the exception to the rule.