Re: [.25/.50] ATo preflop
 

it really doesnt matter. fwiw i probly raise

Re: [.25/.50] ATo preflop
 

I just complete. Suited would be raised.

Re: [.25/.50] ATo preflop
 

You may have the best hand preflop, but if you do your edge is small. That edge is also discounted by being out of position. Just complete and see the flop.

Re: [.25/.50] ATo preflop
 

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OOP, I just complete this, even with all the random hands involved.

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I prefer limping preflop because it helps me to avoid making postflop mistakes. I don't like big pot poker OOP with a weak offsuit ace.

Your postflop edge decreases as the number of players in the pot increases. When you reach about 3 players to beat, I think your postflop skill is basically null as you will need to show down the best hand to win.

Re: [.25/.50] ATo preflop
 

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On the button I think it would be close, from the SB I think that a raise is a mistake. Preflop equity is important but your edge is not that big (potentially non-existant depending on what you know about UTG and button) and position matters too.

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I'm raising on the button almost every time here. Position makes all the difference in the hand. I am probably not c-betting the flop, though, if I miss and it's checked to me.

Re: [.25/.50] ATo preflop
 

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When you reach about 3 players to beat, I think your postflop skill is basically null as you will need to show down the best hand to win.


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Interesting Aaron. Are you infering that your postflop skill doesn't invlove the ability to exploit an edge (even small) better than others?

I am not disagreeing that you will probably need to showdown the best hand to win, but wouldn't you say that a large part of your post flop skill is winning more or losing less Sklansky bucks?

Re: [.25/.50] ATo preflop
 

I'd assume part of what he means is the fact that a good player can "push ppl around" to some extend. It might be limit, but to some extend you can still play the player, not the cards. But that goes down the more players are in a pot.

Also, villains' drawing errors will be much more severe if the pot is smaller. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: [.25/.50] ATo preflop
 

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When you reach about 3 players to beat, I think your postflop skill is basically null as you will need to show down the best hand to win.


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Interesting Aaron. Are you infering that your postflop skill doesn't invlove the ability to exploit an edge (even small) better than others?

I am not disagreeing that you will probably need to showdown the best hand to win, but wouldn't you say that a large part of your post flop skill is winning more or losing less Sklansky bucks?

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I phrased it somewhat poorly. I meant that your postflop skill is nullified by being OOP. The problem is that you will often end up making mistakes because you lack information.

The power of raising a hand like ATo in position is not just your preflop edge, but your preflop edge PLUS your position which allows you to play really well against your opponents.

For example, suppose you raised ATo OOP and the flop is JT6. You should bet because you have a pair and it's not immediately clear that someone should have a Jack. But now you get raised somewhere. This is likely a jack, but now you've got odds when it comes back to you to chase your two pair/trips. In the end, you put in 2 bets without the best hand. But what if he has Q9 for the straight draw (or 97 for a gutshot)? Now you check on the turn and he takes a free card! Oooops...

Now, let's run it again except put you on the button. If it's checked to you, it's an even stronger sign that there is no jack out there and you can bet second pair for value much more comfortably. Furthermore, if someone bets into you, you can call to chase two pair/trips having only put in one bet instead of two.

In the first case, your postflop skill is nullified by your lack of position. You can still play your hand well, but you can't win as much because your position will sometimes cause you to pay more to find out you're behind, and pay more to draw. And sometimes you can't properly value bet your hand (or protect it from draws) because you're OOP.

Position is very very meaningful in limit hold'em.

Re: [.25/.50] ATo preflop
 

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For example, suppose you raised ATo OOP and the flop is JT6. You should bet because you have a pair and it's not immediately clear that someone should have a Jack. But now you get raised somewhere. This is likely a jack, but now you've got odds when it comes back to you to chase your two pair/trips. In the end, you put in 2 bets without the best hand. But what if he has Q9 for the straight draw (or 97 for a gutshot)? Now you check on the turn and he takes a free card! Oooops...


Now, let's run it again except put you on the button. If it's checked to you, it's an even stronger sign that there is no jack out there and you can bet second pair for value much more comfortably. Furthermore, if someone bets into you, you can call to chase two pair/trips having only put in one bet instead of two.

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What you missed here is the description of what happens when you're OOP in the unraised pot. Yes it's true that being OOP is worse than being OTB here, but I don't have a choice in that matter. If I still have to bet/call ATo on the flop even if unraised, then I want the pot to be smaller to make it so that my mistakes aren't as bad against bigger hands. Or are you keeping the pot small so you can fold more easily?

Re: [.25/.50] ATo preflop
 

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For example, suppose you raised ATo OOP and the flop is JT6. You should bet because you have a pair and it's not immediately clear that someone should have a Jack. But now you get raised somewhere. This is likely a jack, but now you've got odds when it comes back to you to chase your two pair/trips. In the end, you put in 2 bets without the best hand. But what if he has Q9 for the straight draw (or 97 for a gutshot)? Now you check on the turn and he takes a free card! Oooops...


Now, let's run it again except put you on the button. If it's checked to you, it's an even stronger sign that there is no jack out there and you can bet second pair for value much more comfortably. Furthermore, if someone bets into you, you can call to chase two pair/trips having only put in one bet instead of two.

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What you missed here is the description of what happens when you're OOP in the unraised pot. Yes it's true that being OOP is worse than being OTB here, but I don't have a choice in that matter. If I still have to bet/call ATo on the flop even if unraised, then I want the pot to be smaller to make it so that my mistakes aren't as bad against bigger hands. Or are you keeping the pot small so you can fold more easily?

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Who said you have to bet second pair into a field of 5 players with a 6 SB pot? Check and see what develops. I'd check J8s (top pair) on this board with this many opponents, too.