Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Private Joker raises. 4 callers. I call with 63o, because stox says to call with any 2 here, and because I am drinking a corona.

Flop JT3 2 spades.

I check. PJ bets. 2 callers. I call.

Turn is an offsuit 6. I check. PJ bets. 1 caller. I CR. PJ 3 bets. Ultra fishy lady calls. I...?

[/ QUOTE ]

The real question here is, does PJ know not to 3bet an overpair here? My guess is that he does, and thus you draw dead.

Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
 

call, cc river even if you fill up, fold OOP if a J or T hits.

Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
 

I think you're toast in this hand.

Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
garland, 4-betting this turn barring any specific factors thats been going on is throwing money away.

also the range you give is ridiculous for joker to 3-bet this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. The only thing that we aren't told is if Joker thinks Snowball is on tilt but the multiway turn CR is so strong that I doubt it matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true. Only if he thinks you are on tilt would you considered putting in those extra bets, but you are probally way behind. PJ is semi-nitty and wont get out of line in a big pot.

Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
garland, 4-betting this turn barring any specific factors thats been going on is throwing money away.

also the range you give is ridiculous for joker to 3-bet this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. The only thing that we aren't told is if Joker thinks Snowball is on tilt but the multiway turn CR is so strong that I doubt it matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true. Only if he thinks you are on tilt would you considered putting in those extra bets, but you are probally way behind. PJ is semi-nitty and wont get out of line in a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joker's a nit, but he's not stupid. Not getting out of line in a big pot is something far different than setting money on fire by costing yourself big pots through passivity. I'm not saying this 3-bet shouldn't worry you, but the pot size and his opponents in this hand are reasons to think Joker is weaker, not stronger.

Joker--

No offense, of course. I think you play well.

--Nate

Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I CR. PJ 3 bets. Ultra fishy lady calls. I...?

[/ QUOTE ]

super easy fold, your crushed. PJ isnt 3-betting a hand that cant beat your two pair.

Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I CR. PJ 3 bets. Ultra fishy lady calls. I...?

[/ QUOTE ]

super easy fold, your crushed. PJ isnt 3-betting a hand that cant beat your two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT--

Why?

Part of me wants to fold this hand, but some hand-reading (preflop being important) and thinking through the hand from Joker's perspective makes me want to make him show me a hand here. I think it's even more important than usual to know how Joker views Snowball. Certainly I'd say that folding requires some justification.

--Nate

Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I CR. PJ 3 bets. Ultra fishy lady calls. I...?

[/ QUOTE ]

super easy fold, your crushed. PJ isnt 3-betting a hand that cant beat your two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT--

Why?

Part of me wants to fold this hand, but some hand-reading (preflop being important) and thinking through the hand from Joker's perspective makes me want to make him show me a hand here. I think it's even more important than usual to know how Joker views Snowball. Certainly I'd say that folding requires some justification.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

Name one hand that Joker would three-ball on the turn that is behind Snows range. Also tell me if any of those hands will be behind if snow catches a 4 outer to fill up on the river. I cant think of any, if you can I'm prepared to keep an open mind. even if Snow is viewed poorly in PJ's mind I dont see a 3-bet with an overpair here.

Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I CR. PJ 3 bets. Ultra fishy lady calls. I...?

[/ QUOTE ]

super easy fold, your crushed. PJ isnt 3-betting a hand that cant beat your two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT--

Why?

Part of me wants to fold this hand, but some hand-reading (preflop being important) and thinking through the hand from Joker's perspective makes me want to make him show me a hand here. I think it's even more important than usual to know how Joker views Snowball. Certainly I'd say that folding requires some justification.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

Name one hand that Joker would three-ball on the turn that is behind Snows range. Also tell me if any of those hands will be behind if snow catches a 4 outer to fill up on the river. I cant think of any, if you can I'm prepared to keep an open mind. even if Snow is viewed poorly in PJ's mind I dont see a 3-bet with an overpair here.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT--

Snowball loses to QQ and JJ. Joker could 3bet AA, KK, and AQ with the right reads. What would you do with a total calling station on your left and an aggro guy on your right in a big pot? Would you do it all the time?

--Nate

EDIT: I see you mentioned the overpair. I think that Joker's making a big mistake if he's not at least thinking about 3-betting those hands, because he might be ahead, the pot is big, and it might get him a free showdown. We've all seen that Snowball will have a terrible time not shutting down with basically anything he's got. Joker's smart enough to realize this. Remember that the total station to Joker's left could easily have a draw, and particularly with draws like gutshots and 5-out one-pair hands Joker wants badly to 3-bet. Again, calling this an "obvious fold" is a very simplistic and zeroth-to-first-level way to approach this hand.

Re: 63o - hand vs Private Joker
 

Against me in this spot I would call down and not like it. If this were a hand in a vacuum against an unknown TAG, I would not 3-bet big overpairs. But this situation, if any, would have me widening my 3-betting range for the reasons Nate posted.

Therefore folding might be wrong here in a pot of this size with the dead money in there. But 4-betting is also a spew. Such is the position you're in when you call my raises with 63o, flop bottom pair, and peel.