Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

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I hate concepts of 'control of the hand', especially here if it even applies, because we have position which gives us control anyway since a lot of his hands would probably be some kind of draws.

Problems with raising the flop are simple. I really don't know what he's bet folding here, if he's bluffing I think a c/r would be more likely, but hey, maybe A6 or something. So why are we inflating the pot? We're making it difficult on ourselves and losing an excellent chance for him to make a bigger mistake later in the hand.

I'm finding it really difficult to explain why I much prefer a flop call, I guess I feel like opponents make so many mistakes on the turns, as do we, that we're just to vulnerable by raising.

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By 'control of the hand' I mean that I think he will just call and check to me on the turn, which is exactly what the villain did.

I also wouldn't hate a fold on this flop, but I don't think much of a call. I mean, what are you going to do on the turn when he bets again (which most opponents are going to do)? He could still be on the one-big-club draw, but I can't see calling any more in the hopes that he is firing several bullets. So calling is, to me, just a way of donating, since I don't plan to call again on the turn.

By raising the flop and checking behind on the turn, it induces a bluff/misplaced value bet from a lot of hands (such as A6). If a club comes on the end and he bets, I am probably folding, but I think I am ahead of his range if a non-club falls and he bets, only because his range includes all those hands which were semi-bluffing the flop and have missed.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

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he def doesnt just have non-club overs if he donked into the raiser.

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I may have been reading more into what was going on at the table than there really was. He had seen me raising a lot preflop and betting postflop, but lately had seen me fold to postflop aggression and I thought he was likely to bet there with any hand he was playing. Could be he was playing a bunch of other tables and hadn't really thought about our little psychological battle.

Without that possibly bad read, I think playing this hand small would be best. There was at least one fish at the table, besides myself, and I shouldn't have been out gunning for a big pot with one of the better players.

It's ok to name names around here isn't it? If not, let me know and I'll edit. Villian was Vehn.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

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I also wouldn't hate a fold on this flop, but I don't think much of a call. I mean, what are you going to do on the turn when he bets again (which most opponents are going to do)? He could still be on the one-big-club draw, but I can't see calling any more in the hopes that he is firing several bullets. So calling is, to me, just a way of donating, since I don't plan to call again on the turn.

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I have to say I really hate this line of thinking. It's certainly not something that sounds like it's maximising EV, unless it's accepting making enough poor decisions later on.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

this may explain it better.

this too:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (4 handed) internettexasholdem.com

UTG ($539.05)
Hero ($880.60)
SB ($1541.05)
BB :#A500AF(microbet)/ ($609)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $18</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB :#A500AF(microbet)/ raises to $54</font>, Hero calls $36.

Flop: ($111) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
microbet checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($111) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
microbet checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $80</font>, microbet calls $80.

River: ($271) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
microbet checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $175</font>, microbet folds.

Final Pot: $446

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (4 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button ($535.05)
Hero ($774.60)
BB ($1526.05)
UTG :#A500AF(microbet)/ ($608)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG :#A500AF(microbet)/ raises to $18</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($42) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">microbet bets $30</font>, Hero calls $30.

Turn: ($102) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">microbet bets $72</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $300</font>, microbet folds.

Final Pot: $474

man I was trashed last night

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

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he def doesnt just have non-club overs if he donked into the raiser.

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I may have been reading more into what was going on at the table than there really was. He had seen me raising a lot preflop and betting postflop, but lately had seen me fold to postflop aggression and I thought he was likely to bet there with any hand he was playing. Could be he was playing a bunch of other tables and hadn't really thought about our little psychological battle.

Without that possibly bad read, I think playing this hand small would be best. There was at least one fish at the table, besides myself, and I shouldn't have been out gunning for a big pot with one of the better players.

It's ok to name names around here isn't it? If not, let me know and I'll edit. Villian was Vehn.

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thing is that this is a [censored] awful board to try and donk overcards on the flop. so much is calling or raising. if hes competent at all he likely wouldnt.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

Yeah, I thought you were making some moves. I did fold the better hand in those cases, but barely.

In the first case I had KQ and after you called the reraise preflop I was concerned about an overpair. Calling the turn was probably a mistake.

In the second I had 89 and both my bets were bluffs.

Thing was a couple people at that table had been pretty obviously folding whenever they missed or whenever a scary card came. I made a mistake treating you like them.

In the hand I posted I bet the turn and called a push, thinking I might still be ahead or if not a club might be good.

Vehn, do you think I was just unlucky that on this hand you really had it, or do you think I screwed up?

You can tell me, I'm just donking off the money I had on Stars before I decide what I'm going to do post-apocolypse. I probably won't be playing you much if at all.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

I like the flop raise as a kind of cheap showdown play. I check the turn.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

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Yeah, I thought you were making some moves. I did fold the better hand in those cases, but barely.

In the first case I had KQ and after you called the reraise preflop I was concerned about an overpair. Calling the turn was probably a mistake.

In the second I had 89 and both my bets were bluffs.

Thing was a couple people at that table had been pretty obviously folding whenever they missed or whenever a scary card came. I made a mistake treating you like them.

In the hand I posted I bet the turn and called a push, thinking I might still be ahead or if not a club might be good.

Vehn, do you think I was just unlucky that on this hand you really had it, or do you think I screwed up?

You can tell me, I'm just donking off the money I had on Stars before I decide what I'm going to do post-apocolypse. I probably won't be playing you much if at all.

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I was 4 tabling and trashed and don't remember much, honestly I was playing like a complete donkey and think you played fine. On the J9s hand I would not call turn with KQ there without probably calling a river bet, I have a bluff a huge % of the time and will not ever let you win by checking river if thats what you were hoping for. The 89 hand to be honest I check bluffraise this turn a lot even when sober because its such a good turn to 2nd barrel at by most players.

In the posted hand you were just unlucky I had a big hand and you had a decent made hand. If you were full stack it would be an easy bet fold but as played you have "outs" and have to call after you pot the turn.

To be completely honest since it probably doesn't matter any more I very rarely donk flops into pf raisers without a monster. This is a limit mentality because most good limit players hate being donked and will play back at you very often.

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

ty

Re: nl600 vs. 2er
 

i think even with the history bet calling this turn is terrible. i also think bet folding is gross. so yea, check the turn imo. i don't HATE the flop raise but i wouldn't call it standard. i'd like it more if it was two tone or even in this same situation if we didn't have the 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

also, did you REALLY call the turn with KQ high no pair no draw in vehn's first hand? bet the flop and as played fold the turn...you put him on a big pair so you didn't bet the flop, but by that same logic you call the turn with KQ high no pair no draw??