Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

A-Rod was an A free agent, Posada was an A free agent and Rivera was an A free agent. Pettite is an A free agent. We've already signed 3 and are trying to sign a forth in Andy. What was the rule again about not being allowed to sign more than 3 A free agents this year? Will it have an impact on us if we need to sign Rowand or something?

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

ya what's the deal with andy he's a perfect one year sign until they sign a big FA starter next offseason

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
ya some random asian guy who will probably take some time to adjust to mlb, or ROWAND....

also let me get back to my point melkys range isn't good now, and hes probably going to become bulkier and as a result slower

[/ QUOTE ]

Young players improve defensively normally, they don't regress.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod was an A free agent, Posada was an A free agent and Rivera was an A free agent. Pettite is an A free agent. We've already signed 3 and are trying to sign a forth in Andy. What was the rule again about not being allowed to sign more than 3 A free agents this year? Will it have an impact on us if we need to sign Rowand or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG its all ARod's fault

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod was an A free agent, Posada was an A free agent and Rivera was an A free agent. Pettite is an A free agent. We've already signed 3 and are trying to sign a forth in Andy. What was the rule again about not being allowed to sign more than 3 A free agents this year? Will it have an impact on us if we need to sign Rowand or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure resigning your own players doesn't count, so there would be no problem with signing Rowand.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ya some random asian guy who will probably take some time to adjust to mlb, or ROWAND....

also let me get back to my point melkys range isn't good now, and hes probably going to become bulkier and as a result slower

[/ QUOTE ]

Young players improve defensively normally, they don't regress.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure they do. they just often get moved to other positions when they do.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod was an A free agent, Posada was an A free agent and Rivera was an A free agent. Pettite is an A free agent. We've already signed 3 and are trying to sign a forth in Andy. What was the rule again about not being allowed to sign more than 3 A free agents this year? Will it have an impact on us if we need to sign Rowand or something?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure resigning your own players doesn't count, so there would be no problem with signing Rowand.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of problems with signing Rowand, this just won't be one of them.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
ya some random asian guy who will probably take some time to adjust to mlb, or ROWAND....

also let me get back to my point melkys range isn't good now, and hes probably going to become bulkier and as a result slower

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you so in love with ROWAND? You think Melky at 23 is going to get worse next year, but ROWAND at 30 isn't? WTF?

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ya some random asian guy who will probably take some time to adjust to mlb, or ROWAND....

also let me get back to my point melkys range isn't good now, and hes probably going to become bulkier and as a result slower

[/ QUOTE ]

Young players improve defensively normally, they don't regress.

[/ QUOTE ]

sure they do. they just often get moved to other positions when they do.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya i can see him becoming a very good left fielder... but theres no way his range is going to improve... he's going to get somewhat bulkier...possibly alot...also he'd probably be a better hitter if he bulked up and lost some speed

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ya some random asian guy who will probably take some time to adjust to mlb, or ROWAND....

also let me get back to my point melkys range isn't good now, and hes probably going to become bulkier and as a result slower

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you so in love with ROWAND? You think Melky at 23 is going to get worse next year, but ROWAND at 30 isn't? WTF?

[/ QUOTE ]

i meant melky's D will get worse in 3-5 years... . i was referring to making him the yankee CF for the rest of his career setitment being thrown around on this thread

ROWAND for the next three years will be better than melky...the team will improve dramatically with him in center

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

ESPN is reporting that Santana is going to be moved to either NY or Boston within the next 48 hours. Should be interesting.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]


ROWAND for the next three years will be better than melky...the team will improve dramatically with him in center

[/ QUOTE ]

ZIPS 2008 Projection:
Rowand .276/.339/.444
Cabrera .286/.352/.419

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


ROWAND for the next three years will be better than melky...the team will improve dramatically with him in center

[/ QUOTE ]

ZIPS 2008 Projection:
Rowand .276/.339/.444
Cabrera .286/.352/.419

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Melky is absurdly underrated. Plus/Minus gives it to him pretty hard. But fielding metrics still need to be corroborated with actual evidence as some decent systems may have a player as great, average or terrible all in the same year. Obv this is not the case.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
ROWAND for the next three years will be better than melky...the team will improve dramatically with him in center

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you ever looked at Rowand's numbers before 2007?

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Melky is absurdly underrated.

[/ QUOTE ]

This drives me crazy too. Because he's spent the last two years in the majors, everyone ignores the fact that he just turned 23. He's almost a full year younger than Ellsbury. If Melky had spent the last two years playing CF in Triple-A, he'd probably be an untouchable prospect.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

I can understand people being upset about losing prospects again for high-priced players, but I think that in this case, it is justified.

One question: After making this trade, while also taking into account the additional moves the Yankees will make to fill up holes for the 2008 season, will they be in good shape to either win the AL East or the AL Wildcard? If so, it is a great deal.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I was cashman and I spent years putting up with George's interference, and then finally got increased control after threatening to leave, and built up a great crop of young players, and then saw the very best one traded by some [censored] a couple months after he takes over... I would probably be [censored] pissed off.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was Cashman, I'd be ecstatic. Through my rebuilding of the Yankees farm system, I'd have acquired the best pitcher in baseball at the age of 29. Not only that, but I'd still have numerous legitimate prospects that could be important parts of the future Yankees teams for years to come.

Sure, Hughes is a great PROSPECT, but Santana has proven for years that he is a dominating, frontline starter. If Hughes pans out, he is AT BEST what Santana already is. If the Yankees end up acquiring Santana, I don't see how anyone can deny that the Yankees are closer to winning a championship. Isn't that what it's all about if you are a Yankees fan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously it depends on who is calling the shots on whether hughes will be included or not, and whether cashman supports it or not... but a lot of the reports I've seen say there was a lot of debate within the organization and certain people voiced strong objections to including him but were overruled, and that person that was overruled was cashman. If it is the case that Cashman didn't want to make him eligible in a package but was ignored, my point makes sense. If he is the one who wants to be aggressive obviously it doesn't. But I think that if Hank is overruling Cashman there is a significant chance of him going to another team, and that would end the period of being responsible and smart and turn into Hank being a douchebag nutso. Based on his immature Torre and Arod comments I am completely convinced he is bad for the club if he doesn't keep his nose out of key decisions.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can understand people being upset about losing prospects again for high-priced players, but I think that in this case, it is justified.

One question: After making this trade, while also taking into account the additional moves the Yankees will make to fill up holes for the 2008 season, will they be in good shape to either win the AL East or the AL Wildcard? If so, it is a great deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're trading winning now at the expense of winning in the future. These trades won't dramatically increase their chances of winning. Crockpot can comment more on this than I can though :/

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I was cashman and I spent years putting up with George's interference, and then finally got increased control after threatening to leave, and built up a great crop of young players, and then saw the very best one traded by some [censored] a couple months after he takes over... I would probably be [censored] pissed off.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was Cashman, I'd be ecstatic. Through my rebuilding of the Yankees farm system, I'd have acquired the best pitcher in baseball at the age of 29. Not only that, but I'd still have numerous legitimate prospects that could be important parts of the future Yankees teams for years to come.

Sure, Hughes is a great PROSPECT, but Santana has proven for years that he is a dominating, frontline starter. If Hughes pans out, he is AT BEST what Santana already is. If the Yankees end up acquiring Santana, I don't see how anyone can deny that the Yankees are closer to winning a championship. Isn't that what it's all about if you are a Yankees fan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously it depends on who is calling the shots on whether hughes will be included or not, and whether cashman supports it or not... but a lot of the reports I've seen say there was a lot of debate within the organization and certain people voiced strong objections to including him but were overruled, and that person that was overruled was cashman. If it is the case that Cashman didn't want to make him eligible in a package but was ignored, my point makes sense. If he is the one who wants to be aggressive obviously it doesn't. But I think that if Hank is overruling Cashman there is a significant chance of him going to another team, and that would end the period of being responsible and smart and turn into Hank being a douchebag nutso. Based on his immature Torre and Arod comments I am completely convinced he is bad for the club if he doesn't keep his nose out of key decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cashman overruled Hank and Hal during the managerial decision. They wanted Mattingly, he wanted Girardi and he got his way. So I'm not entirely sure Cashman has lost all power within the organization.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can understand people being upset about losing prospects again for high-priced players, but I think that in this case, it is justified.

One question: After making this trade, while also taking into account the additional moves the Yankees will make to fill up holes for the 2008 season, will they be in good shape to either win the AL East or the AL Wildcard? If so, it is a great deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

They're trading winning now at the expense of winning in the future. These trades won't dramatically increase their chances of winning. Crockpot can comment more on this than I can though :/

[/ QUOTE ]

They are trading for the best pitcher in the league who is 29 years old. They have the resources to add players who they might need to fill holes in the future. They have legitimate prospects who can contribute greatly in the future. I agree with your point if it was a small-market team and they were trading young talent for a high-priced player, but it's the Yankees.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

And your point? You're trading two young cost controlled league average players who have upside, for the best pitcher in baseball who's going to demand a risky contract extension. This is terrible enough on its own. Throw in another prospect that holds some value and its lollercoaster bad.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

My point is that this "risky" contract extension is for one of the the least-risky, most talented pitcher in the league. Throw in another mid-level prospect that would never see the field for the Yankees and it means nothing.

You wouldn't trade two league average players for the best pitcher in a league which is dominated by pitching?

If you are going to say Santana and his contract is risky, then what would you say about Hughes?

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
You wouldn't trade two league average players for the best pitcher in a league which is dominated by pitching?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I'm discussing this with you. But Hughes/Melky are essentially playing for almost free. Both are worth big contracts on the open market.

You're trading a ton of cost controlled years of MLB average players who could develop into star level talent for... the right to a pay a premium to the best pitcher in baseball? And aren't these contracts given to premium pitchers almost all huge flops? Have young pitchers not shown dominance (Verlander, Liriano, King Felix, Joba, Carmona etc etc)?

Whatev.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You wouldn't trade two league average players for the best pitcher in a league which is dominated by pitching?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I'm discussing this with you. But Hughes/Melky are essentially playing for almost free. Both are worth big contracts on the open market.

You're trading a ton of cost controlled years of MLB average players who could develop into star level talent for... the right to a pay a premium to the best pitcher in baseball? And aren't these contracts given to premium pitchers almost all huge flops? Have young pitchers not shown dominance (Verlander, Liriano, King Felix, Joba, Carmona etc etc)?

Whatev.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem, as I see it, has to do with contention for the World Series next year. If the Yankees put both Hughes and Joba in the rotation (or Hughes and Kennedy), both of those guys will be on strict pitch counts/innings counts all year. This means the bullpen will be in games early, leading to a fatigued bullpen. The Yankees will have a very difficult time competing in October of 2008 with a bullpen beat up from a season of overuse - just look at what happened to the Mets down the stretch.

Now it could shake out several ways but having Wang and Santana averaging almost 7 innings a start will go a long way to nullifying the 5 - 6 averages that Hughes and Chamberlain put up.

If the Yankees don't acquire Johan Santana, their chances for a 2008 World Series are not great in my mind. Their chances go up for future World Series bids - but keep in mind that the Yankees' position players are almost all in a decline phase. They almost certainly should not hold on to all 3 young pitchers as a result, despite the fact that they are cost controlled, etc. These are the Yankees.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You wouldn't trade two league average players for the best pitcher in a league which is dominated by pitching?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I'm discussing this with you. But Hughes/Melky are essentially playing for almost free. Both are worth big contracts on the open market.

You're trading a ton of cost controlled years of MLB average players who could develop into star level talent for... the right to a pay a premium to the best pitcher in baseball? And aren't these contracts given to premium pitchers almost all huge flops? Have young pitchers not shown dominance (Verlander, Liriano, King Felix, Joba, Carmona etc etc)?

Whatev.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah your points are very valid

though Santana>>>>> guys like Hampton, Zito

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You wouldn't trade two league average players for the best pitcher in a league which is dominated by pitching?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I'm discussing this with you. But Hughes/Melky are essentially playing for almost free. Both are worth big contracts on the open market.

You're trading a ton of cost controlled years of MLB average players who could develop into star level talent for... the right to a pay a premium to the best pitcher in baseball? And aren't these contracts given to premium pitchers almost all huge flops? Have young pitchers not shown dominance (Verlander, Liriano, King Felix, Joba, Carmona etc etc)?

Whatev.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah your points are very valid

though Santana>>>>> guys like Hampton, Zito

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you can assume Hughes/Melky/Kennedy/and even Joba will ever be as dominant as Santana has been and will most likely continue to be.

In truth the way Yankees spend...the size of the contract doesn't really matter given we'll just waste that money by overpaying for some other Free Agent who isn't worth anything close to it compared to Santana.

If you knew with certainty that Santana will make it to free agency then u wait...but that is highly highly unlikely.

So u make the trade. Melky/Hughes/+ another prospect we don't really care about.

I can live with (hopefully)
Santana
Petite
Joba
Kennedy
Moose.

and a trio of Santana + Kennedy + Joba for the next 5 years.

Re: ***yankees official offseason thread*****
 

[ QUOTE ]


I can live with (hopefully)
Santana
Petite
Joba
Kennedy
Moose.

and a trio of Santana + Kennedy + Joba for the next 5 years.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're forgetting a decent pitcher named Chien Ming Wang.