Re: Why Im no longer an ACist
 

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Here's what he said:

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Acists love to talk about how goverments coerce us into doing stuff we dont like, however they dont like it that much when somebody points out that there really isnt much freedom is youre born in a poor family get an horrible informal and formal education and you are never able to develop any significant skill

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The implication is that being born poor is a form of coercion. He redefines coercion.

and

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Society as a whole has to make the desition wheter its worth to increase “the coercion done by moral agents” in order to decrease the negative impact of “ the coercion not done by moral agents”

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He has also redefined coercion to mean a lack of action, which is most certainly not the definition of coercion that libertarians are using when they make their arguments.

His argument, that some people have circumstances beyond their control and it's ok to use coercion to address that, is perfectly valid, although merely normative. But the libertarian argument against coercion is also merely normative.

However, he is also using a bit of a strawman by saying libertarians "don't care" about natural state. Just because you don't support state coercion to address natural state problems doesn't mean you don't care.

Lastly, he also employs a false dilemma by implying that either the state must solve natural state problems with force or nothing else can be done. Thus opposing the state's coercion in this matter means you are indifferent to the problem. Not so.

natedogg

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Excellent post! Thanks.

Re: Why Im no longer an ACist
 

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AlexM, perhaps my example was way too far-fetched, anyway the point I want to make is that youre definiton of slavery is inadequate. The fact that you think that someone that lives on spacious house, a confortable car and a 9-5 job he enjoys is a slave just because he has to pay income tax says a lot about your worldview.

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What it says about my worldview isn't terribly relevant. Stop enslaving me.

Also, few people enjoy their jobs...

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Alex, we have axiomatic differences you think freedom means not being incomed tax on youre property I think freedom means being able to do what you want, I want a system that gives the most freedom to everybody( not only those who got lucky in the natural lottery and have meaningful property)I recognize that property rights and proper incentives are needed in order to improve freedom for everybody, however if we give too much emphasis on economic freedom then we are worse off on actual freedom.

Re: Why Im no longer an ACist
 

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Absurd. Having a government undermines property rights in the first place. That said, some gov't somewhere might have done something vaguely resembling this - I don't know, I'm not a history expert

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That you are not a history expert shows.

The protection of private property rights, and rights in general for that matter, is one of the principal ideas behind the modern state.

That practical ACism protects property rights better than a modern current state model is merely a hypothetical assumption. Which is probably why some posters here (myself included) feel that these debates most of the time just run on dogmatic fumes, both ways.

Re: Why Im no longer an ACist
 

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AlexM, perhaps my example was way too far-fetched, anyway the point I want to make is that youre definiton of slavery is inadequate. The fact that you think that someone that lives on spacious house, a confortable car and a 9-5 job he enjoys is a slave just because he has to pay income tax says a lot about your worldview.

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What it says about my worldview isn't terribly relevant. Stop enslaving me.

Also, few people enjoy their jobs...

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Alex, we have axiomatic differences you think freedom means not being incomed tax on youre property I think freedom means being able to do what you want, I want a system that gives the most freedom to everybody( not only those who got lucky in the natural lottery and have meaningful property)I recognize that property rights and proper incentives are needed in order to improve freedom for everybody, however if we give too much emphasis on economic freedom then we are worse off on actual freedom.

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I think freedom means the Sweedish bikinni team craving to lick my nuts, begging for my permission.

Re: Why Im no longer an ACist
 

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AlexM, perhaps my example was way too far-fetched, anyway the point I want to make is that youre definiton of slavery is inadequate. The fact that you think that someone that lives on spacious house, a confortable car and a 9-5 job he enjoys is a slave just because he has to pay income tax says a lot about your worldview.

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What it says about my worldview isn't terribly relevant. Stop enslaving me.

Also, few people enjoy their jobs...

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Alex, we have axiomatic differences you think freedom means not being incomed tax on youre property I think freedom means being able to do what you want, I want a system that gives the most freedom to everybody( not only those who got lucky in the natural lottery and have meaningful property)I recognize that property rights and proper incentives are needed in order to improve freedom for everybody, however if we give too much emphasis on economic freedom then we are worse off on actual freedom.

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I think freedom means the Sweedish bikinni team craving to lick my nuts, begging for my permission.

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What is your point?