Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

I think that this is merely because the ballerness of El D and his friends has increased over the years. They have more money to throw around, they eat in nicer restaurants and so their tipping level has increased. I'm sure there are plenty of stingy tippers still out there.

I doubt that Diablo has his finger on the pulse of the actual staff as to what they expect from their customers. The "expected" tip is calculated from 1. His friends and 2. 2+2. His friends like to keep up appearances and cheap 2+2ers don't like to be flamed.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

iron,

"I doubt that Diablo has his finger on the pulse of the actual staff as to what they expect from their customers."

I doubt iron has any f'ing clue about anything.

First off: Also, if you don't agree with the premise of this question, DON'T RESPOND IN THIS THREAD, thanks.

Secondly, I have extensive experience in the bar/restaurant industry and am friends w/ tons of servers/bartenders. Tipping has increased, both in terms of amount and expectation.

Finally, I don't f'ing care about the fact that plenty of stingy tippers still exist. I mean, there are still virgins in their late 20s. That doesn't change the fact that about 50% of kids in high school are having sex.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

[ QUOTE ]
my g/f claims that in the parts of the midwest she's lived (Wis. & Indiana) 10% is pretty common. I suspect she's just cheap. Can anyone from a flyover state confirm this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm from Illinois (non-Chicago area) and I personally tip based off 20%. Sometimes more sometimes less. I don't know anyone who tips based off 10% in non-Chicago IL, which should be comparable to Indiana and Wisconsin.

I don't know why I tip as high as I do. It isn't about "being a baller" or anything, because I certainly am not that.

I think that it is like Ray Zee said. I just have less of a value for money. It's not detrimental for me. I don't have credit card debt or anything like that (just college loans). The other reason, I assume, is that there is some intrinsic motivation within me and I enjoy helping others, also as Ray stated.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

El D,

I feel it may contribute somehow to this thread by saying that I am 22 and have always considered "standard tip" to be 15-18%. This is what I was always brought up on.

That said, I tip 20% or so almost every time I eat.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Tony,

10% is def on the cheap side anywhere, but my experience in the midwest and south is that tipping is still closer to 15% than 20% there for most, while in more urban/cosmopolitan/whatever cities like SF/NYC/LA/Boston it's closer to 20% for quite a few more people.

Autograt of 18% in Texas or Atlanta would be received pretty poorly, I'd guess (I haven't done group dinners there for a long time, though, might be wrong), but it's pretty common now for groups in SF/NYC.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Have we become more of a service economy?
It would make sense then, that more people have worked service jobs, and thus know what it's like to depend on tips for their income.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

I think the bulk of the reason is sociological. If I had to guess, I would say that the incremental moves are because (as has been suggested) people want to feel 'better' than the norm. If the norm is 15%, then 20% is 'better'. Also, I am sure this is pushed by the perception of what more rich and/or famous people do. I don't think this really goes on at a conscious level though. This seems similar to words and names coming in to and out of fashion with the masses to me. We are, as individuals and cultures, striving by large to be better than the norm, however we perceive better than the norm as being.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

I think there's a common perception today that there's a larger gap in wages between the high-end and low-end jobs. Tipping has become a form of charity. People feel that the minimum wage is not high enough, that the typical entry level service job is not enough to live on, and take it upon themselves to provide what they feel is a more fair income for them. Whether or not this perception is true could be an interesting thread subject.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Autograt of 18% in Texas or Atlanta would be received pretty poorly, I'd guess (I haven't done group dinners there for a long time, though, might be wrong)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's common here for groups.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have we become more of a service economy?
It would make sense then, that more people have worked service jobs, and thus know what it's like to depend on tips for their income.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stated this as well but I dont think its getting enough attention as a factor in this thread

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

More and more people are eating out these days. It is a much higher percentage than 40 and even 20 years ago. More two working parents and single parent homes means less time for home cooked meals. That translates into more restaurants and more restaurant employees. After having worked in a restaurant a person is much more likely to give better tips. Since tipping is passed onto children from parents this is going to have a compounding effect. Also being a bad tipper has a negative social connotation. Therefore if a majority or strong minority is tipping x then it will spread to others.

I doubt we are going to see tipping decline but there has to be an inflection point where it just stops increasing or the growth rate becomes minuscule.

Also an increase in disposable income will increase tipping. Tipping could be considered conspicuous consumption much like buying name brand items. More money=more money spent on status.

EDIT: Actually the more I think about it I like the conspicuous consumption theory. IMO this resonates throughout American society in many different aspects. Someone mentioned this earlier, but bottle service immediately springs to mind.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

[ QUOTE ]

1- because there's something that makes me feel good about knowing I'm tipping slightly more than normal. I try to be a very appreciative customer. It's not just tipping, but also lots of thank yous and whatever else. This is mostly because of my brief experience working in the service industry.


[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first thought.

I want to be a good tipper. I think most people also do. The fact that tipping keeps going up just means that being a good tipper is worth paying whatever % above the norm people think amounts to being a good tipper.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

People who are saying that tipping has increased because the gap between rich and poor (white color workers/service workers) has increased,

You really think people are thinking about that?

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

[ QUOTE ]
People who are saying that tipping has increased because the gap between rich and poor (white color workers/service workers) has increased,

You really think people are thinking about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

they don't necessarily have to think about it in that way for it to be true. there are definitely people who think "adding an extra 5% won't make any difference to me, but i bet it'll make that server happy".

also, lol at "white color workers"

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

tips have gone up becuase people go out so much more often and you dont want to be known as a stiff or you wont get a table. regulars tip more than randoms and as people go out more you get more regulars than randoms. supply and demand increases the tips at in demand places and the tide raises all ships.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Another point limon hits on kinda:

I've been eating lunch in the same area for nearly 10 years. Leaving a larger than normal tip is also part of hoping I get better/equal service next time. Also, by doing that, I feel like it makes those times I tip less for a reason speak louder.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Guys,

I think what you need to realize here is el d is asking why tipping has increased, not IF tipping has increased. To me it is incredibly clear that is has. Places I used to go that autogratted 15 now autograt 18, etc. Why and not the IF imo.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the bulk of the reason is sociological. If I had to guess, I would say that the incremental moves are because (as has been suggested) people want to feel 'better' than the norm. If the norm is 15%, then 20% is 'better'. Also, I am sure this is pushed by the perception of what more rich and/or famous people do. I don't think this really goes on at a conscious level though. This seems similar to words and names coming in to and out of fashion with the masses to me. We are, as individuals and cultures, striving by large to be better than the norm, however we perceive better than the norm as being.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the answer. People who leave less than the average tip are stiffs that no one likes. People who leave more than the average tip are generous people who feel for the common man. It's also in the nature of restaurant meals that they are often situations where people want to show how great they are (dates, business lunches, even meals with friends. eating by yourself where there's no one whose opinion you care about to witness the tip is a rarity). So everyone wants to be above average, which is obviously mathematically impossible. When the perceived average was 15%, the real average was probably 20%. Now that the perceived average has caught up to the old reality of 20%, the real average is even higher.

Some people think that a similar effect plays a role in CEO pay, of all things. No board goes around looking for a bargain CEO who will work for less than average. They want a great CEO and they tell their comp consultants to pay him an above-average salary. And the same cycle goes on.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Very good post imo. Totally agree.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

This is mostly just speculation, but I feel like there are a lot more restaurants these days than in the past, even as recently as the '80s and early '90s, when I was a kid. Big national chains like Fridays, Chili's, etc. are everywhere now. Not sure whether these are choking out local places and keeping the overall restaurant/population ratio the same, but if that ratio is indeed increasing, there is likely also a higher percentage of people who worked in a restaurant waiting/bussing tables as a job in high school/college. These people are, in my experience at least, more likely to tip more, so if there's a higher percentage of ex- and current restaurant workers eating at restaurants, that might at least partially explain the rise in average tip. Again, just a theory of mine, but I think it makes sense.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

I wasn't able to find the full list (you have to buy the guide I guess), but Zagat's most recent data indicates that west coast diners are the most stingy in the nation:

From this press release:

Tipping: Among the nation's most generous tippers are Denver (19.5%),
Detroit and Philadelphia (19.4%), all exceeding Zagat's national average of
(19%). West coast diners in San Francisco and Los Angeles are among the
least generous at 18.4%, while Honolulu averages a desultory 18% tip.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Not really sure WHY exactly but I do have some observations.


[ QUOTE ]
It's also in the nature of restaurant meals that they are often situations where people want to show how great they are (dates, business lunches, even meals with friends. eating by yourself where there's no one whose opinion you care about to witness the tip is a rarity).

[/ QUOTE ]


Is that really that much of a factor?
Most dine-out situations I've ever been involved in I very rarely have any idea how much the other person tips and they don't have any idea how much I tipped either.
This is true whether we are splitting the check or whether one or the other is paying for the whole thing.

People just don't share this type of info that often. And if you're on a date it's not like the girl is going to be eyeballing the check and receipt to see how much you tip. I mean, it could happen that they look at the number of bills left on the table and make an evaluation. But more often than not one party pays and the other is not going to know how much the tip was.


The societal norms have definitely changed. People of all generations believe that 20% is far more acceptable now whereas previously that would be considered a very generous tip.
I think somehow the service industry has pushed it that way just with talk/peer-pressure or something like that which ends up getting spread around.

I know that my 63-year-old Mom tips 20% because when we dine-out she has me double-check to make sure she is tipping enough because she ain't too hot at math. And she doesn't care at all really about giving to the needy or getting better service when she returns there because she doesn't frequent that many places often enough to become known. But she does know that 20% is considered appropriate now. Where she heard this I'm not sure.

My Dad is kind of slow to catch up to what is happening in the world around him sometimes and I believe he tips in the 12-15% range although I'm not positive. If so then he is completely oblivious to how horrible a tipper he is compared with most people.
But I think that's very much the case for a lot of the senior population in Florida. And for many it doesn't have a whole lot to do with being stingy because they can't afford to tip more or anything like that. It can be at a nice and expensive restaurant but they just haven't gotten the word that 12% is considered extremely low.

I'm pretty sure if you asked people in the service industry in Florida they would tell you that the more affluent seniors can be some of the worst tippers around even if they believe they got great service. Not true all the time of course. But some of them just seem to not have received the memo that 12% is kind of insult now and that 20% is more the norm.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my g/f claims that in the parts of the midwest she's lived (Wis. & Indiana) 10% is pretty common. I suspect she's just cheap. Can anyone from a flyover state confirm this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm from Illinois (non-Chicago area) and I personally tip based off 20%. Sometimes more sometimes less. I don't know anyone who tips based off 10% in non-Chicago IL, which should be comparable to Indiana and Wisconsin.



[/ QUOTE ]

I grew up in rural Indiana and, after a ten year stint in Chicago, now live in downstate Illinois. My experience has been that when people here go to a nice restaurant, you'll see tips ranging from 15-20%. When you see people going to a local diner, or to dinner at the local lodge, you'll see a tip of roughly a dollar per person regardless of the cost of the meal. Older people definitely tip less than younger ones.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

[ QUOTE ]
dean, not true. If you look at restaurant prices im pretty sure you'll find that they rose proportionally to the level of wealth. Things like that dont really change over time so much because people are willing to allocate x% of their income to eating out, so when incomes rise so does the amount they will spend on dinners and the restaurant owners raise their prices.

[/ QUOTE ]
in the US inflation has far outpaced the minimum wage over the last 40 years or so. tips are the not the only income servers receive

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

I am 24 with a ton of friends making $150k+. Two points:

1. The phenomenon is 100% confined to cities where young people make a ton of money

2. The rise in tipping is due to young people (under 40) for two reasons:

a) They have never experienced a real recession
b) They are (finally) being paid their market worth.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

[ QUOTE ]
b) They are (finally) being paid their market worth.

[/ QUOTE ]

o rly? how is their market worth determined, if not by what the market is willing to pay for them?

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Diablito,

I think it could have something to do with minimum wage or some other low-wage standard.

To keep it simple let's say you want your servers to make twice minimum wage. If the minimum wage goes up (or you just pay the lower-level staff more) then restaurant prices will go up, but not by as much as minimum wage/staff wage has increased. Therefore, for servers to continue to make the same relative to the lower guys they will have to get a higher percentage in tips.

Say you pay the dishwashers et al $10 and hour and can charge $100 for a meal. Customers tip 15 and the waiters earn 5 bucks more, or 150% of the wage of the dishwashers. If you increase the dishwasher salary to 15 and charge 104 for it then tipping 15 percent now means that the water gets $15.60, just barely more. Bump her up to 20% and she makes $20.80 which is again about 5 bucks more.

Obviously I'm simplifying here but you can see the point.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Jared,

Lots of flaws w/ your explanation scenario. I'll let Mason or David elaborate.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Only read about half the posts so sorry if this has been covered.

I think it's quite reasonable to say that as wealth increases people will tend to tip more. This isn't a firm rule, but i think it is generally true. So the states has been continually prosperous for a long time, and thus an increase in tipping wouldn't be all that unreasonable. I also think this is partly your perception of it as when you were in college i'm guessing you were significantly poorer then you are now, and probably went out to dinner with poorer people and thus the "standard" tip was much lower like 10-15%. However, as you got older and you and your friends accumulated wealth you all would have started tipping more. So i think American prosperity has something to do with it, but i also think the increase in your wealth has even more to do with your perception of the incredibly important 2p2 issue of tipping. This is a rather extreme example but if you compare my wealthy poker playing friends, to my college friends you'll see an average tip of like 25% compared to like 5%, and it all has to do with wealth.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Diablo,

The increase in tipping is due to a higher standard of living since the US economy has been prospering for past 10 years. While we the US did experience a recession after the dot com boom, those who could afford to go out then inevitably could afford to go out now, especially after the recent real estate boom where most thought they were set for life in terms of money. And as virtual net worth increases, so does spending.

Another point is the rich keeps getting richer. As the elites keep accumulating moneys and start balling at fancy restaurants with their standard 20%+ tips, I would feel kind of cheap if my tip percentage is too below that amount. Thus, I think the elites' generosity plays a big role in tip incrementation. I can just imagine going to a fancy restaurant and witnessing two hotshots out tipping each other just to feel good about themselves. If I was rich, I would probably do it [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Question I just thought of, that may or may not be relevant.

Is this happening elsewhere?

In Europe, where tipping isn't nearly as common, is it significantly more common than 10 years ago? Are people tipping more than just the leftover change these days?

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

All,

Jared asked me to elaborate. Among other things.

a) there is not a fixed service fee in america
b) customers do not know how much dishwashers get paid
c) customers do not give a [censored] about ratio of waiter:dishwasher pay
d) minimum wage has increased at rate far below rate of restaurant price increase

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

[ QUOTE ]
dean,

"Diablo, I'd be interested to see how the wages of servers v. the mean wage has altered since you were in college. I'd guess that servers wages have risen less in real terms that the general increase in wealth. This would be my explanation."

That's a big part of what I'm wondering here.

If we look at the following factors:

Restaurant sales
Server fixed wage
Server tip

What is (Server fixed wage)/(Restaurant sales) now vs. 20 years ago?

What is (Server fixed wage + Server tip)/(Restaurant sales) now vs. 20 years ago?

I'm curious if the overall labor cost for restaurants has stayed at the same percentage, of if the restaurants have reduced labor cost as a percentage of expenses by keeping the second number constant, taking advantage of the increase in tips to pay their employees less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this study would be interesting, but wouldn't really explain why tips have increased over time. I don't think the general population considers servers wages in their tip calculations.

I'd guess the main explanation for increased tips is the increase in credit card usage. People find it psychologically easier to tip money when writing a number down on paper rather then shelling out the cash. I'd even guess my tips are lower when I pay by cash rather then by credit card, and it's completely unintentional.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

The people who really get the shaft are bartenders who have not really seen a tip increase over the years, as many people still consider the normal tip for a drink to be 1 dollar. Prices rise for drinks, but people don't usually calculate percentages when paying by cash. Tips for drinks aren't going to gradually increase, as people aren't going to start giving a $1.25 drink for a tip, and the next logical jump will be an accepted $2 per drink tip for cash purchases.

Re: PDT 2/2 : Why has tipping increased?
 

Adam,

Bartenders definitely don't get the shaft.

1) $1/drink is often greater than 20% for cheaper drinks like beer.

2) People at high-end bars often tip more than $1 per drink for top-shelf cocktails.

3) People often tip 15-20% when paying by credit card, which often ends up being more than $1/drink.