Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much everything even loosely related to the "audiophile" market is a scam

[/ QUOTE ]


http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/3615/t11im0.jpg

ftw



Seriously. Go troll somewhere else.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

I was excited when buying my system, and the salesman convinced me to buy a £100 interconnector. DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON CABLING. Seriously, since then I've read a lot, asked a lot of auido technicians, done some tests of my own and there is no noticable difference. Cabling market IS a scam. I wasted £100 on a cable and am happy to admit it.

One reputable audio technician I spoke to said that cables CAN colour the sound, but all they do is EQ it. If you want to EQ your sound, get a decent EQ deck.

Watch out for hi fi dealers who turn the volume up on more expensive equipment as well. Humans perceive louder volumes as better quality sound, so hi fi dealers tend to increase the volume slightly when demonstrating expensive cabling.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I used to know a guy from back when I was going to Phish shows who was an audio engineer and showed me this website along time ago and was going to build the imperial folded horn cabinet. I lost touch with him and never heard if he got it done or how it sounded. THe claims on the imperial page sound untrue but he did not seem to think so and said it is all in the design and how the sound is moved in the cabinet. He worked for McIntosh doing something, I cannot recall what though. He knew his stuff at least with respect to mastering phish shows so much that the band own archivist was giving him previously untouched DATS from the early 90s to master for release on bt.etree.org (legal tracker). What is those of you who know your stuff take on Decware's stuff and have anyone purchased anything from them. You can even buy the plans for the cabinets which I think is pretty cool.

http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm

He was looking at this design.
http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainm....htm&intro

[/ QUOTE ]

Decware Imperial:

http://www.decware.com/imperial1.jpg


I think they're using coaxial drivers (15"), in a backloaded construction. Similar to the old monster Tannoys:

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3...restigepl5.jpg



Backloaded horns is what you see quite often in the DIY community. They get somewhat budget fullrange drivers and put them in a backloaded horn.

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/1959/123bcg7.jpg

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/8708/123asu2.jpg

http://www.quarter-wave.com/Gallery/...Doublehorn.jpg


Or in super funky cylindrical form:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/crenaud003/...ral/Spiral.jpg

http://www.diyparadiso.com/cornu/jens1.jpg




Depending on what you're aiming for, I think this can be a good solution. I'd personally still would like to digitally EQ them to give them some real warmth, which just backhorning them doesn't quite do.

As far as coaxial drivers go, that's certainly a solution. There is a reasonable selection of coaxial drivers and if it's power you're after then this is one way to go. But remember, it's still a two-way system that crosses in a sensitive area. I wouldn't prefer it over a really good fullranger in a suitable case (like the PHY-HPs in open baffle in the OP), but I would certainly prefer it over a standard two-way system with wide-directional tweeter.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was excited when buying my system, and the salesman convinced me to buy a £100 interconnector. DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY ON CABLING. Seriously, since then I've read a lot, asked a lot of auido technicians, done some tests of my own and there is no noticable difference. Cabling market IS a scam. I wasted £100 on a cable and am happy to admit it.

One reputable audio technician I spoke to said that cables CAN colour the sound, but all they do is EQ it. If you want to EQ your sound, get a decent EQ deck.

Watch out for hi fi dealers who turn the volume up on more expensive equipment as well. Humans perceive louder volumes as better quality sound, so hi fi dealers tend to increase the volume slightly when demonstrating expensive cabling.

[/ QUOTE ]


Just ask them *why* those cables are supposedly better. Hilarity will ensue.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much everything even loosely related to the "audiophile" market is a scam, whenever anyone does a double blind test the audiophiles freak out(because they've just spent $400 on a volume knob and admitting they got took is too great a blow to the ego) and claim the test was invalid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anything about this stuff but my intuition is that theres a significant grain of truth to what you're saying but that there's also a real difference between the speakers you can get for a few hundred bucks and the speakers you can get for a few thousand. Please to be linking the studies you're talking about?

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

fwiw I am 100% sure cabling makes a difference. I have a/b'd my headphones blind with a couple different cables and there were noticeable differences, mostly wrt warmth and detail. However, I would certainly agree that tons of expensive cables are worthless. This again, is another reason you dont just buy based on brand. My dad still thinks monster cabling makes his systems way better, whereas if i took some microphone cabling with decent connectors and did some soldering it would normally sound better than monster cables. Dont fall for marketing, you have to do research and actually listen to different things to see for yourself.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

Would an average person be able to hear the difference between the ultra high fi and say a midrange system? Do you need some special physical gift for hearing. Would a middle aged person be be able to hear this stuff? Additionally, would you have to be a musician yourself to really appreciate this?

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would an average person be able to hear the difference between the ultra high fi and say a midrange system? Do you need some special physical gift for hearing. Would a middle aged person be be able to hear this stuff? Additionally, would you have to be a musician yourself to really appreciate this?

[/ QUOTE ]


Have you ever listened to a song on the radio in your car and mistook it for a real concert?


Clearly, the answer is yes (to your question). However, there is such a thing as training your ear. Another thing is appreciation. Some people might hear an insanely good system yet don't give a censored and continue with their life as usual. So what matters there is the appreciation of music. Some people didn't grow up with it and don't even understand it. For others it can make them cry as they get really into the music. And again for others they might enjoy music tremendously yet still have a crappy system at home. What is the case there I think is that they've probably never been decently introduced to a good system and shown the differences in sound and experience. For me personally I can be moved at home as I could be live. On that end I really enjoy DVD of live concerts, so you get the whole thing.


PS. I'm listening to Mozart - Requiem album at the moment, on headphones, and it's giving me shivers all over.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much everything even loosely related to the "audiophile" market is a scam, whenever anyone does a double blind test the audiophiles freak out(because they've just spent $400 on a volume knob and admitting they got took is too great a blow to the ego) and claim the test was invalid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anything about this stuff but my intuition is that theres a significant grain of truth to what you're saying but that there's also a real difference between the speakers you can get for a few hundred bucks and the speakers you can get for a few thousand. Please to be linking the studies you're talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure why Nielso got so defensive, clearly components are the least scammy part of the niche market. He and I would differ on where the diminishing marginal return on investment becomes unbearable for components(and probably by a lot), but I think he'd likely admit that diminishing marginal return exists.

The pure scam is the cabling and power cords and etc. stuff. $17k speakers are not worth $15k more than $2k speakers to a reasonable person, but they do have some real physical differences (that are then translated to significant perception differences through the power of self-delusion).

The cabling stuff is all absolutely hilarious to read, though, let me try to find a link I read that was a roundup of various power cords. It was on some audiophile forum where even mentioning double blind testing was a bannable offense.

Also, I'm not trolling, Nielso, people need to know that the audiophile market is specifically targeted to exploit Emperor's New Clothes syndrome.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much everything even loosely related to the "audiophile" market is a scam, whenever anyone does a double blind test the audiophiles freak out(because they've just spent $400 on a volume knob and admitting they got took is too great a blow to the ego) and claim the test was invalid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anything about this stuff but my intuition is that theres a significant grain of truth to what you're saying but that there's also a real difference between the speakers you can get for a few hundred bucks and the speakers you can get for a few thousand. Please to be linking the studies you're talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure why Nielso got so defensive, clearly components are the least scammy part of the niche market. He and I would differ on where the diminishing marginal return on investment becomes unbearable for components(and probably by a lot), but I think he'd likely admit that diminishing marginal return exists.

The pure scam is the cabling and power cords and etc. stuff. $17k speakers are not worth $15k more than $2k speakers to a reasonable person, but they do have some real physical differences (that are then translated to significant perception differences through the power of self-delusion).

The cabling stuff is all absolutely hilarious to read, though, let me try to find a link I read that was a roundup of various power cords. It was on some audiophile forum where even mentioning double blind testing was a bannable offense.

Also, I'm not trolling, Nielso, people need to know that the audiophile market is specifically targeted to exploit Emperor's New Clothes syndrome.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, you are trolling. You are trolling because you keep making sweeping statements; statements which are not backed up by any technical knowledge nor any kind of situational analysis.

Your sweeping statements (including your first sentence in this thread which stated that *everything* related to audiohpile is a scam) are not appreciated here and if you continue like this I'll ask a moderator to do something about it.


If you'd read this thread you'll find me burning several audio designs. But I'm doing so through backing up my statements technically. There is no point in stating your opinion of something if you can't back it up.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

Dude, making sweeping statements is not trolling, and I carved out the exception for actual components.

But since you're Johnny on the spot here, what do you think about double blind testing?

owsley- What?

Oh, and since I'm editing, here's the link to the power cord roundup:
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...ad.php?t=81533

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

The next thing we know Flywf is going to be lecturing us on how a top end BMW isn't actually worth 75k more than a toyota. Revolutionary.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

I still stand by my diminishing returns statement. It's a well known fact. As far as cabling - I noticed a difference, though subtle, when I switched rather basic wires with Nordost Blue Heavens (in retrospect - probably not a good match for my Jm Lab as they are both "zippy" and bright sounding. Cables do make a difference though.

Yes - good systems make a huge difference in the sound - Everytime I go to my bud's house a put on stuff - I hear sounds I never heard before on recordings.

I think with all the millions and millions of people having their music now at their fingertips(thanks Steve) there's a large untapped potential for high end audio (at least from the digital front) and you are starting to see it with companies like Olive ---- http://www.olive.us/home.html?PHPSES...b9b8e14a6be712

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

See? Otherwise intelligent people can think cabling makes music "zippy" and "bright sounding." There's a legitimate policy concern here that fits in with Nielso's stated purpose of the thread, people need to know that companies like Nordost are scam artists.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
As far as cabling - I noticed a difference, though subtle, when I switched rather basic wires with Nordost Blue Heavens (in retrospect - probably not a good match for my Jm Lab as they are both "zippy" and bright sounding.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much did you pay, and can you explain where the difference comes from, from your understanding?

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would an average person be able to hear the difference between the ultra high fi and say a midrange system? Do you need some special physical gift for hearing. Would a middle aged person be be able to hear this stuff? Additionally, would you have to be a musician yourself to really appreciate this?

[/ QUOTE ]


Have you ever listened to a song on the radio in your car and mistook it for a real concert?

...

PS. I'm listening to Mozart - Requiem album at the moment, on headphones, and it's giving me shivers all over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I spent a couple grand to get a decent (you might disagree...) system. But I'm not sure I should have b/c the things that give me shivers tend more often to be things like WWII era bootlegs of long dead conductors. Can the same person be into that and into finding the speakers that make, say, the just perfect shimmer of a brushed cymbal? When you're into "music" over the sound (though of course they're not ever separate), can you ever have the audiophile ear? It's hard to evaluate the timbre of a brass section when what you fixate on is the harmony and the counterpoint, eg.

And as far as cables etc go, the frustrating thing for me is that when I dismiss, say, power cord mongers, I then see that it's the same people designing amps (eg PS Audio). So if they're FOS on cords, why take their amps seriously? And can you trust anything? (Yeah, you want to listen yourself...but for some it's hard to have much opportunity to audition and compare.)

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would an average person be able to hear the difference between the ultra high fi and say a midrange system? Do you need some special physical gift for hearing. Would a middle aged person be be able to hear this stuff? Additionally, would you have to be a musician yourself to really appreciate this?

[/ QUOTE ]


Have you ever listened to a song on the radio in your car and mistook it for a real concert?

...

PS. I'm listening to Mozart - Requiem album at the moment, on headphones, and it's giving me shivers all over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I spent a couple grand to get a decent (you might disagree...) system. But I'm not sure I should have b/c the things that give me shivers tend more often to be things like WWII era bootlegs of long dead conductors. Can the same person be into that and into finding the speakers that make, say, the just perfect shimmer of a brushed cymbal? When you're into "music" over the sound (though of course they're not ever separate), can you ever have the audiophile ear? It's hard to evaluate the timbre of a brass section when what you fixate on is the harmony and the counterpoint, eg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not following. If you love music, then hearing the music distorted is going to degrade your experience. It's like watching at a beautiful sunset with sunglasses.

For example: would you rather listen to the bootleg or would you rather hear it right there in the concerthall, in the best seat?

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

When I worked at the high-end audio store, we sold a $400 gold tipped cable that connected the CD player to the main unit. AFAIK this is a pure digital connection. I assumed it was pretty much a scam. Please discuss.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

Also I think if I became a big audiophile, I would still place a ton of importance on the aesthetics of the room. Saying looks don't matter is like saying presentation doesn't matter in fine dining. For humans, the visual experience is a huge component IMO, even if the primary sense involved isn't visual. I'm not sure I'd feel that comfortable sitting in a room with some of this ugly-as-sin stuff or gangly wires running everywhere.

I used to deliver the absolute latest amp, speaker, etc. to this dude who literally lived on his bed in his parents' house. The bed was covered with clothes and [censored] and he had just enough room for himself. With all the speaker crap in the front. It was pretty hilarious/frightening as hell. Bread-and-butter.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I worked at the high-end audio store, we sold a $400 gold tipped cable that connected the CD player to the main unit. AFAIK this is a pure digital connection. I assumed it was pretty much a scam. Please discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]


Gold actually conducts worse than other materials (IIRC).

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also I think if I became a big audiophile, I would still place a ton of importance on the aesthetics of the room. Saying looks don't matter is like saying presentation doesn't matter in fine dining.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody claims this. Please to be trolling elsewhere.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

It's been a long time - but basically the overall presentation was better with the Blue Heavens speed, bass, highs. I paid $200+ I think for like 6 ' spaded. (always buy more than you think you need - I regreted only having 6') They aren't cheap but they aren't taht much in the grand scheme of things. My next system will be more modest. cabling will probably be not much more that say Kimber PBJ, Creek 5350 and very good monitor speakers like Von Schweikets VR1's - all purchased used on Audiogon.com

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's been a long time - but basically the overall presentation was better with the Blue Heavens speed, bass, highs. I paid $200+ I think for like 6 ' spaded. (always buy more than you think you need - I regreted only having 6') They aren't cheap but they aren't taht much in the grand scheme of things. My next system will be more modest. cabling will probably be not much more that say Kimber PBJ, Creek 5350 and very good monitor speakers like Von Schweikets VR1's - all purchased used on Audiogon.com

[/ QUOTE ]


Can you explain where the difference comes from, from your understanding?

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pretty much everything even loosely related to the "audiophile" market is a scam, whenever anyone does a double blind test the audiophiles freak out(because they've just spent $400 on a volume knob and admitting they got took is too great a blow to the ego) and claim the test was invalid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anything about this stuff but my intuition is that theres a significant grain of truth to what you're saying but that there's also a real difference between the speakers you can get for a few hundred bucks and the speakers you can get for a few thousand. Please to be linking the studies you're talking about?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure why Nielso got so defensive, clearly components are the least scammy part of the niche market. He and I would differ on where the diminishing marginal return on investment becomes unbearable for components(and probably by a lot), but I think he'd likely admit that diminishing marginal return exists.

The pure scam is the cabling and power cords and etc. stuff. $17k speakers are not worth $15k more than $2k speakers to a reasonable person, but they do have some real physical differences (that are then translated to significant perception differences through the power of self-delusion).

The cabling stuff is all absolutely hilarious to read, though, let me try to find a link I read that was a roundup of various power cords. It was on some audiophile forum where even mentioning double blind testing was a bannable offense.

Also, I'm not trolling, Nielso, people need to know that the audiophile market is specifically targeted to exploit Emperor's New Clothes syndrome.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, you are trolling. You are trolling because you keep making sweeping statements; statements which are not backed up by any technical knowledge nor any kind of situational analysis.

Your sweeping statements (including your first sentence in this thread which stated that *everything* related to audiohpile is a scam) are not appreciated here and if you continue like this I'll ask a moderator to do something about it.


If you'd read this thread you'll find me burning several audio designs. But I'm doing so through backing up my statements technically. There is no point in stating your opinion of something if you can't back it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noone has to deliver backup for the statement that almost everything selling as "audiophile" is scam. You don't getter sound or whatever if you use a cable worth $10.000, it has been done a thousand times before, just use google.
If you talk about good speakers, self-made speakers or how the shape and interiour of a room affects the audio quality you are talking about something completely different. You talk about stuff that can be verified by both science and blind tests.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Noone has to deliver backup for the statement that almost everything selling as "audiophile" is scam. You don't getter sound or whatever if you use a cable worth $10.000, it has been done a thousand times before, just use google.
If you talk about good speakers, self-made speakers or how the shape and interiour of a room affects the audio quality you are talking about something completely different. You talk about stuff that can be verified by both science and blind tests.

[/ QUOTE ]


Please stop flaming needlessly if you don't have anything to add which hasn't already been said.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain where the difference comes from, from your understanding?

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd have to ask the PhD enginners at Nordost who designed the things.

Re: The Ultra-Fi thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also I think if I became a big audiophile, I would still place a ton of importance on the aesthetics of the room. Saying looks don't matter is like saying presentation doesn't matter in fine dining.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody claims this. Please to be trolling elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The essense of ultra-fi is that audio-quality is the main goal, and looks, costs, labour and so on are of lower importance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please to quit being a dick to someone who's just trying to contribute to your thread.