Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
allin on river. i think it's a good bluff because he probably can't put you on a missed draw after you c/c flop.

shove > fold > call imo. calling seems awful, he probably has a queen a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

a guy with 6af isnt betting a Q that he cc with pre on the turn against a guy who likes calling him down?

[/ QUOTE ]

more likely a guy with 6af checks QT rather than checking diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

a 23/18 guy cc'ing QT with players behind him seems unlikely, also i think diamonds missing are a good reason not to bluff because he can put us on diamonds and call with whatever.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if he folded, you had the best hand...

squeeze pre 100%

[/ QUOTE ]

great post

edit: do you pay off every time a villain takes a non-standard line? from reading your posts, it seems to me that thinking, trappy tags would have a field day against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

we aren't playing me, you are playing a 30/10/1, he's not folding a Q

your assholery is excused.

[/ QUOTE ]

read the post ftw

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

serious answer: if you reckon he'll fold a Q (i wouldnt b/c this line looks fos), yeah why not. but would he not 2nd barrel a Q anyway?

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
i was saying that wanting to "take it down" preflop was a joke

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, much better to trap OOP with a monster like TT.

Plus you hit a set like 40% of the time, right?

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if he folded, you had the best hand...

squeeze pre 100%

[/ QUOTE ]

great post

edit: do you pay off every time a villain takes a non-standard line? from reading your posts, it seems to me that thinking, trappy tags would have a field day against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

we aren't playing me, you are playing a 30/10/1, he's not folding a Q

your assholery is excused.

[/ QUOTE ]

read the post ftw

[/ QUOTE ]

ugh... the point still stands.. relying on ppl to fold tp when they disguised there hand on one street is pretty foolish

not 3betting in this situation is also pretty foolish.

calling seems to be the best option here rather than raising the river, you are underestimating your showdown value here a lot.

but i'm sure i'm very exploitable.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

my last post on preflop: yes, one or more overcards will flop pretty often. yes, it will be more difficult to play, in general, than if i repopped it. that said, if i 3bet, the original raiser will call pretty often, and overcards will still flop 70% of the time. i'll be dealing with one villain instead of two, sure, but the hand will still be tricky to play. whatever.

66: when i said "pretend i have 66," i meant just for preflop. you guys are 100% right that postflop, it is different than TT. my point was, "please ignore preflop."

[ QUOTE ]
fwiw i like a flop c/r with a pretty big range here althought i know you hate raising

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't mind this line at all, and it certainly makes the hand easier to play. as i'm sure you know, i'd prefer doing it with air to with TT.

[ QUOTE ]
This hand in a vacuum looks kinda weird

[/ QUOTE ]

true for sure, but part of it is just that i play "weird"/nonstandard pretty often. perhaps it causes me to run into trouble in ssnl at times because my metagame differs from that of more "straightforward" tags, and i am probably guilty of making poor assumptions at times about other players (usually in the area of giving too much credit, i think). that said, if some of you guys are snapcalling in this spot with a queen against someone like me, good luck.

[ QUOTE ]

we aren't playing me, you are playing a 30/10/1, he's not folding a Q

your assholery is excused.

[/ QUOTE ]

i apologize for my "assholery" towards you, but the quote makes it clear that you've given the op next to no thought. it frustrates me that such a good player is willing to post in ssnl but very often seems to provide (what i believe to be) substance-less content.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

edit in 3, 2, 1...

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
my last post on preflop: yes, one or more overcards will flop pretty often. yes, it will be more difficult to play, in general, than if i repopped it. that said, if i 3bet, the original raiser will call pretty often, and overcards will still flop 70% of the time. i'll be dealing with one villain instead of two, sure, but the hand will still be tricky to play. whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is terrible reasoning for not raising, you go ahead and acknowledge all the advantages for raising, then say w/e it'll still be hard, so I call. Just admit you made a mistake and move on.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

not really. most hands are easier to play if you 3bet them preflop. i think the ev of 3betting here is extremely similar to the ev of calling.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
not really. most hands are easier to play if you 3bet them preflop. i think the ev of 3betting here is extremely similar to the ev of calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
yes because getting more money in while we are definitely ahead of not one, but two villains calling ranges is a bad idea.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

the 2p2er calls a 3bet next to never.

i'm probably something like 50/50 against the other guy's range for continuing. that might be a little off, i'd have to think about it and pokerstove a little.

but really, one of us can start another thread about this if you want, can we end the discussion about preflop?

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

Another relative question: Do you think villain ever has better than 1 pair here?

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

the read was that was big here very, very rarely

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
but really, one of us can start another thread about this if you want, can we end the discussion about preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

no its the first mistake in a hand that lead to another mistake in a hand, don't just dismiss it.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

30/13s don't fold to bets much:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,715,728,608 games 0.005 secs 343,145,721,600 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.535% 57.98% 00.55% 994822896 9477546.00 { TT }
Hand 1: 41.465% 40.91% 00.55% 701950620 9477546.00 { 22+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs, ATo+, KJo+ }

play with it as you wish, but the only way you come out behind is if villain doesn't call a lot of three bets IP in a squeeze spot.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

looks too wide to me, but within the realm of reasonable i guess.

i fail to see how this calculation makes it an auto 3bet.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

3 bet preflop. On the river I have no idea why you're check/raising when a call seems so much better. I also fail to see any metagame implications, because I doubt you're consistently checking a huge hand 3 times.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
no its the first mistake in a hand that lead to another mistake in a hand, don't just dismiss it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the argument for starting another thread if only because having 50% of replies in this thread talking about preflop and 50% talking about the river is going to saturate the quality of the thread a bit in general.

I disagree about one mistake leading to another, though. Change the board a little and give tannen 88 instead of TT and it's pretty much the exact same river spot that he's asking about, except that flatting 88 pre there really isn't a mistake.

Also, the range with which he calls 3bets you gave might as well be his entire CO opening range. Come on dude, just because his VPIP is higher than 25 doesn't mean he's calling a 3bet with every single hand he opens, and it's not as simple as "lol you have equity so 3bet" because it's not like he calls the 3bet and then all five board cards are dealt out with no more action. I still squeeze there personally but I don't like that reasoning.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no its the first mistake in a hand that lead to another mistake in a hand, don't just dismiss it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the argument for starting another thread if only because having 50% of replies in this thread talking about preflop and 50% talking about the river is going to saturate the quality of the thread a bit in general.

I disagree about one mistake leading to another, though. Change the board a little and give tannen 88 instead of TT and it's pretty much the exact same river spot that he's asking about, except that flatting 88 pre there really isn't a mistake.

Also, the range with which he calls 3bets you gave might as well be his entire CO opening range. Come on dude, just because his VPIP is higher than 25 doesn't mean he's calling a 3bet with every single hand he opens, and it's not as simple as "lol you have equity so 3bet" because it's not like he calls the 3bet and then all five board cards are dealt out with no more action. I still squeeze there personally but I don't like that reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

v good points, all.

i think a 3b preflop might be slightly more optimal but it's not worth derailing this discussion, especially with goofy's observation that the two "mistakes" aren't really connected. just leave it alone, people.

also tannen, there simply aren't enough better hands in his range that fold here to merit this play relative to his air/monsters.

call the river, or fold.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet preflop. On the river I have no idea why you're check/raising when a call seems so much better. I also fail to see any metagame implications, because I doubt you're consistently checking a huge hand 3 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

nice post goofy.

[ QUOTE ]

I also fail to see any metagame implications, because I doubt you're consistently checking a huge hand 3 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

i certainly do this with some frequency. in fact, i would never bluff here if i didn't play sets this way sometimes. what the villain thinks about this is more relevant and is a debatable topic, obviously. another question to ask, i think, is, "if thinking villains aren't folding top pair here, doesn't it make sense to take this line with sets sometimes?"

[ QUOTE ]
there simply aren't enough better hands in his range that fold here to merit this play relative to his air/monsters.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i don't think this is a fact.

hypothetically, say he never has a monster here. cr > call > fold, or what?

question two: given the dynamic i described in the op, how often will he be checking the turn with a monster against me? how often should he be checking the turn with a monster against me?

and everyone, thanks for responding. i apologize for being kind of derogatory. it's nothing personal, just trying to get people to consider everything that's going on in the hand, maybe rethink the logic behind certain lines, etc.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

*grunch*

I really dislike this. I think river is a clear call.

As it is, you are repping: missed draw/555/222. Given this range it is definitely profitable for him to call with any Q, probably any pair. And he probably knows this.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
let's just say i can very much play it for pair value postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of position against two opponents with a hand that will encounter overcards 70% of the time, that's pretty difficult. Make them skilled opponents that mix up value bets with two- and three-barrels a decent amount of the time and it's hardly a "joke" to say you can't profitably play TT for pair value here. Look what happened in this hand; you've turned TT into a bluff as a result of playing it for pair value.


[/ QUOTE ]

How does bloating the pot pre-flop help u avoid those problems u mentioned?

edit: btw, im not saying u shouldnt squeeze here, just questioning.

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

I pretty much think this is fps. He might fold JJ, but I dont see any1 folding a queen on the river here atleast not very often.

And squeeze pre 100% of the time here, it is way more +EV than calling. ahead of villains calling range+ 15 dollars in the pot you pick up often+ initiative makes it way more +EV than playing TT oop 3way in a single raised pot

Re: river bluff vs. 2p2er
 

[ QUOTE ]
How does bloating the pot pre-flop help u avoid those problems u mentioned?

[/ QUOTE ]

- It gives you initiative (solves the problem of folding the best hand postflop when you get multi-barreled on a JxxK board or whatever)
- It gets the pot HU, which means that overcards are less scary cause they hit one person's hand less often than they hit one of two opponents' hands.