Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

CT,

"If he was watching his neighbor getting raped, voluntarily "entering a potentially life-threatening situation" would have been perfectly justified."

Of course, I don't see why you think anyone here would disagree.

"'It's not worth somebody getting killed over, we're almost there' might have played better."

He said that as well:
"Don't go outside"
"They're getting away!"
"That's alright. Property's not worth killing someone over"
"They got a bag of loot!"

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Well this is way out of line imo, sure they are burglars etc but taking 2 lives because of this? nah sorry you'll never get me to accept taking lives so easily. But maybe I've been raised different then you people.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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I'm confused... Were the robbers armed?

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Robbers by definition are armed. Otherwise they are burglars.

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But newspapers often use the terms interchangeably, or use "theives."

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

I think this guy will get off because no jury will want to convict him.

I also think he is a murderer. He says "I'm not going to let them get away with this" then just before he goes out he says "They're not getting away with this" then goes outside says "move you're dead" then BANG BANG. He went out there looking for an excuse to administer vigilante justice.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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CT,

"If he was watching his neighbor getting raped, voluntarily "entering a potentially life-threatening situation" would have been perfectly justified."

Of course, I don't see why you think anyone here would disagree.

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I was responding to the absudity of blaming somebody for entering "a potentially dangerous situation."
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"'It's not worth somebody getting killed over, we're almost there' might have played better."

He said that as well:
"Don't go outside"
"They're getting away!"
"That's alright. Property's not worth killing someone over"
"They got a bag of loot!"

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I know, I just thought appealing to the guy's sense of self-preservation was likely to generate the opposite response.

All,

I don't think some people are considering that "I am going to go and stop them by threatening them with my shotgun" is NOT (edit, sorry) the same thing as "I am going to go outside and kill those guys." He could easily have been just planning to detain them, and was prepared to shoot them if they did something nutty like rushing him.

It's not a matter of "I'm going to kill them to save my neighbor's stereo," so much as "I'm not going to just sit here and let them rob my neighbor."

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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All,

I don't think some people are considering that "I am going to go and stop them by threatening them with my shotgun" is NOT (edit, sorry) the same thing as "I am going to go outside and kill those guys." He could easily have been just planning to detain them, and was prepared to shoot them if they did something nutty like rushing him.

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No, they aren't quite the same thing. But isn't detaining people with armed force like that illegal in a lot of states, too? We can debate whether or not it should be, and that might be an interesting subject. I think it's probably not a good idea to make that generally accepted practice because it is a very small step from there to situations like this one.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Diablo - If the guy shot for the sole purpose of not letting the criminals get away then I would not consider him a hero.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

First time listened to just the ABC News report of the incident on Youtube. Was pretty conflicted.

Second time listened to the whole 911 call and came away thoroughly disgusted at the man's actions.

It seemed to me that he was justifying his shooting in advance.
"The laws changed since September 1st.." etc.
"I don't really know these neighbors."
...I Have the right to protect myself"
"A Shotgun is a legal weapon"

Only the man knows what action he planned to take, assuming he had one, when he left the house. But listening to the tape it sure seems like he was bent on shooting the burglars, not just detaining them.

That is the force wasn't a last resort to protect himself but rather a manifestation of his anger at the slowness of the police response/criminals will get away mentality.

Thought the operator did a great job of trying to calm him down and keep him from leaving the house.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

WOW. I don't see how this guy shouldn't be locked up. It sounds like he walked outside just long enough to gun them down then come back inside. You can't send the message that this kind of vigilante justice is OK.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Why not like, shoot em in the feet or something?

Then they can't get away before the cops get there, and you dont gotta worry about murder.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Why not like, shoot em in the feet or something?

Then they can't get away before the cops get there, and you dont gotta worry about murder.

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I'm assuming you're joking. If not, it seems like a terrible idea to go outside with the intent of using force to maim. It's going to be even more dangerous than going outside planning to kill them, and it's not like you're on clear legal ground with this maneuver either.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

waa - Let me get this straight. The man decided to be a highly responsible gun owner and educated himself about relevant Texas gun laws. He demonstrated this knowledge to the 911 dispatcher, repeatedly. Then all of a sudden he goes outside with the express intent of using his weapon in an unlawful manner. Riiiiiiiiight.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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waa - Let me get this straight. The man decided to be a highly responsible gun owner and educated himself about relevant Texas gun laws. He demonstrated this knowledge to the 911 dispatcher, repeatedly. Then all of a sudden he goes outside with the express intent of using his weapon in an unlawful manner. Riiiiiiiiight.

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That's exactly what he did, thanks for clearing it up.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

WRT any comparison here to rape, I want to make 2 comments. First, grand larceny and rape are leagues apart. Comparing them is rather silly.

Second, no one (at least with any decency) witnesses a rape in progress, calls 911, give the police 8 minutes, and then decides to help. You help immediately.

I might look at what this guy did differently had he witnessed this robbery and said, "Oh s**t! My neighbors are getting robbed. I need to get my gun and try to stop them." Then, at least he was acting in the moment (something I think is being overlooked). He wasn't acting in the moment though. He KNEW calling the cops was the correct thing, and only later did he attempt to get involved out of, what I presume to be, frustration. I'm just finding it hard to believe that, given his numerous comments about shooting them made to the 911 operator, he didn't walk out that door with then intention of killing them to avoid seeing them get away with the "bag of loot."

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

ohead - How do you know the man wasn't threatened in some manner by the criminals? You seem kind of prejudiced.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

JB - nobody compared grand larceny to rape.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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ohead - How do you know the man wasn't threatened in some manner by the criminals? You seem kind of prejudiced.

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uhm he went out there with the intention to kill the burglars, thats what I call premeditated murder.

He could just have stayed in his house and he would've avoided this situation, therefor his action was completely unnecessary .

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Boris-

No. No one compared the two in terms of the crimes themselves. But there have been rape analogies made, including one from you. All I'm saying is that the two don't belong in the same conversation in any analagous terms, no more than murder and wire fraud need to be discussed in such terms.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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ohead - How do you know the man wasn't threatened in some manner by the criminals? You seem kind of prejudiced.

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uhm he went out there with the intention to kill the burglars, thats what I call premeditated murder.

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People planning to commit murder generally don't call the police first. Maybe he was leveling 911.
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He could just have stayed in his house and he would've avoided this situation, therefor his action was completely unnecessary .

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LOL crimeaments. For you, what is the threshold for stopping the criminals? What do they have to be doing in order for you to confront them? Put yourself in this guy's shoes where you have a gun and the police aren't going to get there in time.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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He could just have stayed in his house and he would've avoided this situation, therefor his action was completely unnecessary .

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Would it then not be murder if the old man went outside unarmed and the thugs shanked him and killed him?

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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He could just have stayed in his house and he would've avoided this situation, therefor his action was completely unnecessary .

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Would it then not be murder if the old man went outside unarmed and the thugs shanked him and killed him?

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Why are you trolling this thread so hard?

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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He could just have stayed in his house and he would've avoided this situation, therefor his action was completely unnecessary .

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Would it then not be murder if the old man went outside unarmed and the thugs shanked him and killed him?

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Of course it would be murder, what does this have to do with anything? He put himself in eventual dangers way.

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ohead - How do you know the man wasn't threatened in some manner by the criminals? You seem kind of prejudiced.

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uhm he went out there with the intention to kill the burglars, thats what I call premeditated murder.
People planning to commit murder generally don't call the police first. Maybe he was leveling 911.

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He could just have stayed in his house and he would've avoided this situation, therefor his action was completely unnecessary [ QUOTE ]

LOL crimeaments. For you, what is the threshold for stopping the criminals? What do they have to be doing in order for you to confront them? Put yourself in this guy's shoes where you have a gun and the police aren't going to get there in time.

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This guy apparently didn't have all his marbles since he says clearly that he's gonna kill them first to the 911 guy.

And the threshold is if there is people in the house who are in danger.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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uhm he went out there with the intention to kill the burglars, thats what I call premeditated murder.

He could just have stayed in his house and he would've avoided this situation, therefor his action was completely unnecessary .

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You're making two contradictory points here. On the one hand you think the guy is guilty of first degree murder. Which honestly doesn't make any sense because why call the friggin cops in the first place. And then you go on to make the odd statement that he could have avoided the situation by staying inside. Why didn't you say could have avoided the situation by not pulling the trigger? Or he could have avoided the situation by not being a cold blooded murderer? Or he could have avoided the situation by not going outside with a shotgun? No, you made that statement because deep down you know that guy probably fired the gun in self defense. But in your opinion, he should have never tried to stop the guys in the first place.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Why are you trolling this thread so hard?

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WTF are you talking about? There were several clowns who said the guy never should have put himself in the dangerous situation. This implies that if the old man was the one who ended up getting hurt, it would have been the old man's fault.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Diablo - If the guy shot for the sole purpose of not letting the criminals get away then I would not consider him a hero.

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Wait, so what was heroic? The fact that he shot them once he said they came onto his property?

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Boris, which parts of 'Wanna make a bet? I'm gonna kill 'em' and 'Bang you're dead' makes you think he wasn't intending to kill these guys?

What part of his constant 'I can't get them get away with this', 'They have a bag of loot.....this is ridiculous' etc makes you believe he wasn't trying to confront them for vigilante reasons?

Believing that he has the right to take out burglars is a legit point of view. I don't agree with it, but it's legit. But listening to that phone call and coming away with the belief that he went outside solely because his property was under serious threat, took every possible precaution to avoid injuring these guys, and fired only because he was threatened and there was no other to protect himself, is extraordinary.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Why are you trolling this thread so hard?

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WTF are you talking about? There were several clowns who said the guy never should have put himself in the dangerous situation. This implies that if the old man was the one who ended up getting hurt, it would have been the old man's fault.

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It implies no such thing. Obviously the guys who kill him in that spot are morally responsible; equally obviously, putting oneself in that situation unnecessarily is retarded, risky, and likely to lead to outcomes such as this. For that reason the old man should not have done it.

As I said earlier in the thread, if I come to your house with a gun to kill you, and you pull a gun on me, I do not get to claim that I only responded in self-defense when I shot you. I think it is very plain from the 911 call that the guy was looking to administer justice, and the bits about protecting himself are ad hoc rationalizations after the fact. "They were in my lawn, I didn't know what was going to happen." Well, you'd already made it clear you were planning on going outside several minutes ago, and that the only thing holding you up was that you didn't know that neighbor that well ("if it was my other neighbor I would have acted already, I know him pretty well.") His self-defense justification is complete [censored].

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Thread in Politics on this a week or two ago. But here are my .02 cents.

1) Old guy witnesses a robbery.
2) Calls cops.
3) Robbers leaving house before cops get there, presumably going to get away.
4) Old guy thinks he is within his rights to protect his neighbors property with force.
5) Goes outside, warns them, then shoots them.

Seems simple enough to me. The writer on the law says it was not to be interpreted to cover something like this but I think it is arguable at least.


Those of you in the "it was only a VCR camp:" Where do you draw the line? Any amount of property?

Or what if it was your own house? And the robber did not know you were there and you knew for a fact they were unarmed? Is force justified then?


The bottom line is that if somebody considering robbing a house thought there was a good chance they would get shot if caught they might think long and hard before stealing a couple hundred bucks worth of stuff.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Boris,

Did you listen to the whole 911 call?

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

I am not going to lose any sleep over the loss of these two scumbags. I hope the guy gets off, and I hope nobody else in his neighborhood gets robbed for the foreseeable future.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

diablo - yes

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Boris,

Did you listen to the whole 911 call?

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I listed to the whole thing also, and I can't help but think that while a transcript of the call would probably help in charging him with murder, the actual audio will probably get him off.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

This is why I'm afraid of coming to USA, every person got a gun, I would feel much safer in Iraq! lol

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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Boris, which parts of 'Wanna make a bet? I'm gonna kill 'em' and 'Bang you're dead' makes you think he wasn't intending to kill these guys?

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I think he was responding to a hypothetical of the 911 operator saying "You're going to get shot."
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Believing that he has the right to take out burglars is a legit point of view. I don't agree with it, but it's legit. But listening to that phone call and coming away with the belief that he went outside solely because his property was under serious threat, took every possible precaution to avoid injuring these guys, and fired only because he was threatened and there was no other to protect himself, is extraordinary.

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Neither was the case, IMO. He certainly didn't have the right to just kill them because they had a bag o' loot. Legal maybe, but I don't think anybody defending him is talking about that. He went into an extremely stressful situation with incomplete information (Are they armed? What's in his hand? Is he trying to run at me or past me?) and had to make a decision quickly. He didn't have to be 100% certain he was acting in self-defense. For the thieves, any response other than dropping their bag and raising their hands was going to be incredibly dangerous.

JMO. I've picked up somebody else's gun thinking there was a small possibility I might have to shoot somebody, and that was extremely stressful. Not getting shot, not having friends shot, and not going to jail (weird, given I'd done absolutely nothing illegal, but didn't know WTF was going on) were the main thoughts in my head, along with "Holy [censored] [censored]" over and over. I certainly didn't want to shoot anybody, but the thought process at the time is that you aren't about to shoot somebody who isn't threatening you, so whoever that person is his welfare isn't much of a priority compared to mine.

Running towards a guy with a shotgun 15 feet away in the hopes he wouldn't shoot him was suicide, IMO (if that was what happened). I might have had a very similar conversation with the 911 operator, and gone out there strictly in the hopes of detaining those guys, but could see things easily going south quickly if the bad guys did something idiotic like run towards me. Not because they would have deserved, but because I'd have been scared poopless and had a split-second life or death decision to make.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

This guy is scum. He is far, far worse than they two burglars. Jesus Christ.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

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I'm fully in favor gun ownership and the right to defend yourself, but this seems excessive.

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I'm not. If this mouth breather had to use a bat he would have stayed home. Guns make killing people too easy.

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yep

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Actually,edit: yep, it makes it easier for individual's protecting themselves, family, and home to kill criminals

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

This thread is an embarrassment to EDF, fwiw.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

Assessment: This guy wasn't in imminent danger, and there's no way a jury's going to let him get off after wasting two guys for burglarizing a house, when they posed him minimal threat. His entire attitude suggests vigilantism, all the times he said "I'm not gonna let them get away with this!" is evidence of that. He said he had to "protect himself" as they were leaving the window of a neighbor's house, his mind was pretty much made up, he's lucky if they turned out to be armed and on his property.

This guy's guilty as sin of murder.

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

He waited until the robbers were fleeing to step in, so it's not like he was blood thirsty. His intentions seem pretty clear. He wanted to protect his neighbor's property and not let criminals get away. His life is > their lives and they could be armed, so he is a little trigger happy.

There's almost 0% chance the robbers were pranksters or anything else of the sort. I'm sure Texans in upscale neighborhoods are that close to two low income black guys??

The guy probably saved a few lives by doing this. If the criminals tried to rob the house when someone was home unexpectedly, what are the chances of them shooting the home owner? What are the chances these guys commit another crime when they get away with this? What are the chances they kill someone next time? What about all the other criminals or would-be criminals that hear about this and think again?

Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To
 

To be honest I have no problem with what the guy did. I think that shooting people robbing houses isnt a real bad thing for society to have. Things like calling the guy a hero are what is completely baffling to me.