Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3bet flop 100% against that villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd make it like 425 and snapcall push.

luego u seriously dont see why this is easy 4bet? there's am illion and one draws out there and u dont know which he has obv as you said... so given your history and how much you play back at each other u can get a ton of value from every overpair lik ethis and he'll probably shove his draws as well.

also one thing that is kind of sexy btw is to 3 bet flop and if he just calls, check back a blank turn. it gives him a free card some of the time but it stacks overpairs like always and he bluffs when he misses like 99%

[/ QUOTE ]

this was a good post and i concur fwiw...

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

oh one thing i lost my train of thought but the thing about not knowing which draw he has puts us in a bad spot this deep because he can value bet us to death and maybe give up if he misses... so getting all in vs whatever would be preferable obviously.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

well if i were to play back at him with air/draw in this instance, i would probably do it by just calling flop anyway. im not saying its a bad idea to play back and make it look like im FOS, but if i were to pull a move here, id float his c/r, not 3bet it most of the time anyway.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

then shove over any turn bet in that case. i dont know if that's what u did but that's what u should do.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

one more thing is SB is not fish but just reg or something, i check this flop back with this type of player this deep who's liable to c/r a ton of [censored] a fair amount of the time. with fish in tho you lose too much value i guess

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

pretty gross? lol

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
pretty gross? lol

[/ QUOTE ]

These sort of retarded one-liners are really bringing MSNL down.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

yeah i shoved, he had 85. anyway if he WAS full of [censored], im fairly certain he would fire turn anyway. and thats like hundreds and hundreds of dollars we are missing out on by threebetting flop. like i guess that if u had some weird fetish that u just HAD to re-rebluff dudes on suspicious boards, u could re-raise with AA here to balance but i think doing that constantly is pretty awful. so i like the floating more.

god im tired.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3bet flop 100% against that villian.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd make it like 425 and snapcall push.

luego u seriously dont see why this is easy 4bet? there's am illion and one draws out there and u dont know which he has obv as you said... so given your history and how much you play back at each other u can get a ton of value from every overpair lik ethis and he'll probably shove his draws as well.

also one thing that is kind of sexy btw is to 3 bet flop and if he just calls, check back a blank turn. it gives him a free card some of the time but it stacks overpairs like always and he bluffs when he misses like 99%

[/ QUOTE ]

ok good, thought i was going crazy last night after the responses to my first post.

against villian described, hes prob not folding 99+ or overs+flush draw+combo draws. 3bet/snapcall/fistpumpetc.

and yes, its even more of a 3bet without the Ac.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

if my rhetorics are a bit fuzzy, its because i just played 13k hands with no rest in between. i cant think straight.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

btw im not arguing that its an easy stack-off, it was just a checkup. 3bet vs float is what interests me now.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i shoved, he had 85. anyway if he WAS full of [censored], im fairly certain he would fire turn anyway. and thats like hundreds and hundreds of dollars we are missing out on by threebetting flop. like i guess that if u had some weird fetish that u just HAD to re-rebluff dudes on suspicious boards, u could re-raise with AA here to balance but i think doing that constantly is pretty awful. so i like the floating more.

god im tired.

[/ QUOTE ]

instead of hoping to get his $300 turn cont bet and trying to decide which turns and rivers hit his range, we can get $1100+ in with dominated hands and draws that have alot less equity than they might think (like KJcc)

we have the nuts on this board and im trying to get it in asap

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

u make it sound like the one half of a buyin is unimportant. it's HALF A BUYIN. and if we have the nuts on this board, there shouldnt really be that many turn cards dangerous enough to change our opinion of our hand that much imo.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i shoved, he had 85. anyway if he WAS full of [censored], im fairly certain he would fire turn anyway. and thats like hundreds and hundreds of dollars we are missing out on by threebetting flop. like i guess that if u had some weird fetish that u just HAD to re-rebluff dudes on suspicious boards, u could re-raise with AA here to balance but i think doing that constantly is pretty awful. so i like the floating more.

god im tired.

[/ QUOTE ]

you werent drawing dead what more could you want

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

i agree with fsu.

on a slightly related note: fsu, what do you think of this theory i have that people who have played a lot of hands on UB are far better poker players than people who haven't

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]

against villian described, hes prob not folding 99+ or overs+flush draw+combo draws. 3bet/snapcall/fistpumpetc.


[/ QUOTE ]

This just isn't true imo. You seriously think you're getting it in 200bbs deep against 99 here? OP didn't mention villain being retarded, just that he was a tough, tricky, and spewy lag. "Spewy lags" will make a lot of bluffs and semibluffs and such, but that doesn't mean they're going to play worse MADE hands this way, and if he is good like luego says there is no fking way he is raising with a medium pp planning on stacking off 200bbs deep, I just don't buy it at all. If you get all in on the flop you're going to be toast against trips/boat or getting it in against a big draw which has good equity against us. At best we're getting it in against a bare flush draw, which obviously is a good thing but considering that's the bottom of his range here to get it in this deep by 3betting the flop I much prefer calling. Don't forget that by calling you can get it in on a blank turn where their equity with a draw is cut in half, or even better they bet/fold their semibluff. Villain is much likelier to make a mistake if we call the flop than if we 3bet it, period.

100bbs deep yeah 3betting is fine, much likelier for villain to play a worse made hand this way and he already probably committed himself with a draw. But 200bbs deep I think it's insane to believe there is any chance he is going to play 88 like this and happily get it in.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

nice that u pointed that out, i was kinda hesitant to question it since it made me feel like a weaktight nit. i would def not get it in with KJcc in villains shoes vs a flop 3bet, nor would i get it in with 99. bottom line is i think he is way more likely to fire again with garbage than he is to stack off with some BS like 99.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

people who dont get it in with 99 and KJcc are not 'spewy lags'. so either your description was bad, or your reasoning is bad.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i shoved, he had 85. anyway if he WAS full of [censored], im fairly certain he would fire turn anyway. and thats like hundreds and hundreds of dollars we are missing out on by threebetting flop. like i guess that if u had some weird fetish that u just HAD to re-rebluff dudes on suspicious boards, u could re-raise with AA here to balance but i think doing that constantly is pretty awful. so i like the floating more.

god im tired.

[/ QUOTE ]

it works well in this specific hand but as part of a general gameplan when you don't have AA it becomes very expensive to float if he is always betting the turn like you suggest..

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
people who dont get it in with 99 and KJcc are not 'spewy lags'. so either your description was bad, or your reasoning is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

im not gonna get into anything with u here but seriously... u do realize that u dont have to come off as a d-bag whenever ur in the mood to post ur opinion right? its kinda hard to take anything u say seriously when u are so often so incredibly way off but at the same time so incredibly adamant that everyone else is retarded while u are incapable of ever analyzing a poker situation incorrectly.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

uh, i'll agree with your post but think it's a strange place to make it since that post you quoted doesn't seem that bad to me. it just seems to me (and I believe others - good solid players) that your problems with 3-betting the flop go against your description of him as a 'spewy lag'. not sure what you got so pissed about. agree in general that i'm a d-bag on here, though.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

I agree with FSU, duck

4bet flop people think your FOS it balances when you do with air and you have the best hand like 90% of the time, when he shoves insta fist pump snap call.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

def not pissed at all, just telling u that i think using that condescending tone, esp when there is a fairly high possibility that u might actually be WRONG, kinda makes it hard to take u seriously.

and yeah, u are wrong here. him being a tricky lag prone to spew does not equate to him automatically fourbetpushing a paired flop with seemingly no FE and a high possibity of drawing to runner runner kings. it could happen, sure, but assuming he always does it is a big mistake in my opinion.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yeah i shoved, he had 85. anyway if he WAS full of [censored], im fairly certain he would fire turn anyway. and thats like hundreds and hundreds of dollars we are missing out on by threebetting flop. like i guess that if u had some weird fetish that u just HAD to re-rebluff dudes on suspicious boards, u could re-raise with AA here to balance but i think doing that constantly is pretty awful. so i like the floating more.

god im tired.

[/ QUOTE ]

it works well in this specific hand but as part of a general gameplan when you don't have AA it becomes very expensive to float if he is always betting the turn like you suggest..

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. 3-betting is better in this hand, and in the long run.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

is this guy a spewy lag or a tough, tricky 2p2er?

u said in OP that he is a spewy lag, and spewy lags often wayyy over estimate FE, overvalue hands and get it in too light. this seems like a great board for a spewy lag to, well, spew.

also, i would 3 bet pretty small to give him the illusion of more FE.
if he is tough, winner, tricky etc, than I think calling is prob better.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
is this guy a spewy lag or a tough, tricky 2p2er?

u said in OP that he is a spewy lag, and spewy lags often wayyy over estimate FE, overvalue hands and get it in too light. this seems like a great board for a spewy lag to, well, spew.

also, i would 3 bet pretty small to give him the illusion of more FE.
if he is tough, winner, tricky etc, than I think calling is prob better.

[/ QUOTE ]
pls stop quoting me without the condescending d-bag attitude. and he's already said this is wrong, so stfu pls.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

fsu, cant he be both? i manage to pull it off. can name a few others that will happily admit to spewing like crazy at times too. i guess we have different definitions of the word spewy? i have seen him 5betbluff K7o 100bb deep, i have seen him checkcall down bottom pairs and ace high, i have seen him do a bunch of stupid stuff - hence spewy. i think he could be capable of stacking off with KJcc here, but i'm not sure. 99, i kinda doubt it. what i am 100% of however is that he will follow up with a turn bet a huge percentage of the time. cant see why we wouldnt want to exploit that.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

Am I the only one that doesn't believe that "spewy LAGs" don't show up with 99+ here very often from the BB with a button raise and fish SB call...? (ie. he squeezes?!!?)

I think taking away most of the overpairs that will stack off on the flop pushes the scales for the call flop camp... I can't see you being in many favorable positions when getting ai on this flop and subsequently, you're losing value from double barrels..

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

luego,

yeah, thats pretty much why I asked if he was a winner or 2p2er, bc then, like i said, i lean back towards a call. and yeah, it prob comes down to what we are considering spewy. ofc you can be both, i certainly am.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
is this guy a spewy lag or a tough, tricky 2p2er?

u said in OP that he is a spewy lag, and spewy lags often wayyy over estimate FE, overvalue hands and get it in too light. this seems like a great board for a spewy lag to, well, spew.

also, i would 3 bet pretty small to give him the illusion of more FE.
if he is tough, winner, tricky etc, than I think calling is prob better.

[/ QUOTE ]
pls stop quoting me without the condescending d-bag attitude. and he's already said this is wrong, so stfu pls.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont really see the need for u to be sarcastic when posts like this are in plain sight....

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3-betting flop this deep is pretty suicidal.

[/ QUOTE ]
against a spewy lag? what a joke. i think you can go either way, depending on image, dynamics, recent history, etc. but saying it's "suicidal" is just retarded. once he bets turn big, though, i'd call and re-eval river (potentially folding to a shove).

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

what's wrong with that post?

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

dont know about "wrong", just a bit unnecessary to call one of the best players online retarded for offering his "joke" of an opinion. not really sure why u wanna push this discussion further...

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

I dont know why people are so happy about getting 200bb in vs a tough lag here. I don´t think you can rule out a 5 or 44 that easily from his range 200bb deep to a 3way flop. I think by the turn you are either drawing close to dead or he has alot of outs. I would need a very good read to get it in here fwiw.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
dont know about "wrong", just a bit unnecessary to call one of the best players online retarded for offering his "joke" of an opinion. not really sure why u wanna push this discussion further...

[/ QUOTE ]
perhaps cause you attacked me with very little provocation when I was trying to be helpful in your thread? in any case, i didn't call Christophers retarded, I called what he said retarded. Sorry if that offended you or Christophers, though. My guess is that he isn't too bothered by it and took it in the spirit it was intended (the spirit of forceful debate).

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

seriously. i have not attacked you. you are the aggressor here. i dont want to get into anything with you. i am super bored/done with forum bickering. if you dont want to take my earnestly expressed advice to heart, thats your problem. it wasnt intended as an insult.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

okay enough of the forum drama

3 bet flop seems less +EV for a lot of reasons, and balancing is overrated - unless luego is having a dick waving contest, he's not 3 balling air that often here. furthermore, if villain continues 100% on turn, this is one of those sick spots where you wait a street to rebluff because it ends up being more profitable.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

blah blah blah

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

[ QUOTE ]
is this guy a spewy lag or a tough, tricky 2p2er?

u said in OP that he is a spewy lag, and spewy lags often wayyy over estimate FE, overvalue hands and get it in too light. this seems like a great board for a spewy lag to, well, spew.

also, i would 3 bet pretty small to give him the illusion of more FE.
if he is tough, winner, tricky etc, than I think calling is prob better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Luego already mentioned villain was both tough and tricky in the OP, along with being spewy. Being spewy doesn't equate to somebody being bad. In fact lots of the best players (bld/cts/aba etc) are considered by most very spewy, but in this instance they're going to them show up with a 99 type hand basically never.

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

just because you dont get it in vs dominated pairs doesnt mean its bad...

Re: pretty gross AA decision vs tough lag
 

but just because its not bad doesnt mean its optimal