Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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vn hand Krantz, ty.

can you remember how high a pocket pair he can possibly flat?


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i would think he calls with TT and JJ significantly more frequently than he reraises them this deep. QQ+ and he would reraise.

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krantz,

I don't think this is true, I think he is capable of flatting the big pairs (although is reraising them the majority of the time), and for TT and JJ is probably calling about 1/2 the time.... and I've watched Patrik play a LOT

river is tough and probably a fold. I agree with your thoughts on Patriks game as well and think he gets away with calling too much in the bb because he reraises so infrequently- he does the same thing in 6 max in the bb vs. a steal raise.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Given that he CRs the flop a LOT and follows through on the turn a LOT, his range before he river bet is obviously quite wide. So now he is looking at that river and having to decide if its a good card for him to fire his final barrell at. Obv its very "level" dependant but Im thinking that he knows that river card looks gross to most of our range, so hes prob following through on his bluffs with a high frequency and thus we need to call here.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Please play HS again, u were so fun to watch!

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Against an opponent like you described, something stupid like min raising his turn leads a lot would be awesome. The thing on the turn is that not only do we think about extracting value, but there are so many cards we don't want to see on the river ([img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6, 4, T).

Particularly since it seems like he has been getting the better of you on the turn, I feel that's the street here to put more money in (he must have over card + [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] a lot, not to mention trips or maybe some sort of PP + [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]).

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

based on the fact that you said he is c/r flops so often and not slowing down on almost all turns, makes this a turn shove to protect your hand. as played id flip a coin on the river.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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I think a flop 3bet is a massive mistake, for a couple reasons. It might be ok if the board was like 742 w/ 2 clubs , but the fact that the board is paired, as well as the fact that we are 80k deep- not 60k or 40k makes 3betting a real big mistake. I doubt you get a fold from bigish hands, and you probably get played back at w/ a lot of bigger draws.


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My problem with calling is that we haven't done anything to define his range since he basically check-raises everything, and overcards still have a ton of equity. I guess we can shove turn on a blank, but if he checks are we going to fire? I feel like calling is going to result in him showing down A high or something.

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So? I'd rather 3bet with total air here. What are you doing if 4 bet?

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seriously dude, 3-betting this flop is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

i would raise the turn and my reasoning is that it feels like he's strong, and you still beat most of the hands in his "strong" range. given yet another giant bet on the river, i think his range tightens up even further to one that now has your hand beat, so i would fold.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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i would raise the turn and my reasoning is that it feels like he's strong, and you still beat most of the hands in his "strong" range. given yet another giant bet on the river, i think his range tightens up even further to one that now has your hand beat, so i would fold.

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see, i think krantz made it soundl ike his river betting range > turn calling (or shoving) range. i also think calling gives us a good chance to look like we have two queens or two nines, where raising the turn over reps our hand in some regards. krantz def didn't say taht he had been bluff raising often or anything.

still, i have nooo problem raising hte turn, i'm just trying to say why i think it's bad in this situation with described history.

i still thin kit's fine and would do it some % of the time, maybe like half.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Played perfectly imo and call river. One consideration is that you need to show PA this type of hand in this spot so you can have more flexibility with lines you take in the future when he inevitably c/r the flop.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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Given that he CRs the flop a LOT and follows through on the turn a LOT, his range before he river bet is obviously quite wide. So now he is looking at that river and having to decide if its a good card for him to fire his final barrell at. Obv its very "level" dependant but Im thinking that he knows that river card looks gross to most of our range, so hes prob following through on his bluffs with a high frequency and thus we need to call here.

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but i think that PA also knows on this board krantz is going to talk himself into calling a lot v PA's "range." So I don't think he's bluffing this as much as we think. Hence a fold.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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i would raise the turn and my reasoning is that it feels like he's strong, and you still beat most of the hands in his "strong" range. given yet another giant bet on the river, i think his range tightens up even further to one that now has your hand beat, so i would fold.

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see, i think krantz made it soundl ike his river betting range > turn calling (or shoving) range. i also think calling gives us a good chance to look like we have two queens or two nines, where raising the turn over reps our hand in some regards. krantz def didn't say taht he had been bluff raising often or anything.

still, i have nooo problem raising hte turn, i'm just trying to say why i think it's bad in this situation with described history.

i still thin kit's fine and would do it some % of the time, maybe like half.

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Yeah, only way raising turn gets more value is since its deep and PA will make a thin semibluff 3-bet shove with a lone club + high card etc.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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i would raise the turn and my reasoning is that it feels like he's strong, and you still beat most of the hands in his "strong" range. given yet another giant bet on the river, i think his range tightens up even further to one that now has your hand beat, so i would fold.

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see, i think krantz made it soundl ike his river betting range > turn calling (or shoving) range. i also think calling gives us a good chance to look like we have two queens or two nines, where raising the turn over reps our hand in some regards. krantz def didn't say taht he had been bluff raising often or anything.

still, i have nooo problem raising hte turn, i'm just trying to say why i think it's bad in this situation with described history.

i still thin kit's fine and would do it some % of the time, maybe like half.

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Yeah, only way raising turn gets more value is since its deep and PA will make a thin semibluff 3-bet shove with a lone club + high card etc.

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Or when we don't incorrectly fold to a 6 river, 4 river, [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] river, etc

Or when he calls a turn raise and folds to a river bet with a hand that isn't putting money in on the river UI, etc

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

that is such a big flop raise i am having trouble figuring out what it means.

i would play the same and fold here.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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that is such a big flop raise i am having trouble figuring out what it means.

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What you mean big, it's <pot (assuming krantz opened to 3bb).

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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that is such a big flop raise i am having trouble figuring out what it means.

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What you mean big, it's <pot (assuming krantz opened to 3bb).

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its much larger than normal for HU matches. most people just go 3x or something slightly higher.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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that is such a big flop raise i am having trouble figuring out what it means.

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What you mean big, it's <pot (assuming krantz opened to 3bb).

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its much larger than normal for HU matches. most people just go 3x or something slightly higher.

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is PA most ppl?

I would stay away from making a big read on him pot raising a flop...

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

result?

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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result?

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no not yet

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

its over pot on flop i think.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

100 less than pot. deeper stacked its probably his standard size anyways.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

I agree with flop and turn. River I'm really torn because it's PA and he's capable of so much, but I think I fold. Sick spot though for sure.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

does anyone else think the river card doesn't matter that much and the river decision is still tough without the board coming a 4?

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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does anyone else think the river card doesn't matter that much and the river decision is still tough without the board coming a 4?

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no

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Jw, would you ever check flop behind here since he cr so many paired board flops? And are overpairs in his range enough to factor into the decision?

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

this is the first great thinking hand in a while on here... thanks for posting this

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

I think on this hand, the river call is really quite trivial. I think in the long run of EV, it won't matter much because Patrik seems to balance his hands so well (i have never played him just looking at hands others have shown me). I think my decision would come down to how I want him to perceive me.

I think with patrik, I would rather have him on the defensive. I would rather him making big call downs than making huge bluffs on the river. If that was the case, Id rather call and error on the side of being a calling station in his eyes rather than being able to be run over. Against him this may not make any difference at all, but if its this close, i would like to create an impression on him that i can make big calls and i get to see a line he took on a huge hand oop.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Ur hand is never a 4, a 6 and usually not a flush is it (even if it is a flush sometimes - still an ugly board to call a bet on) - PA knows this right? AND knows that he could easily have a 6, tens, or even a better flush in ur eyes right? So given the fact that it seems a good spot to bluff, that all straight draws missed and that he could be turning a middle pair into a bluff (maybe?), seems like a call cant be bad.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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that is such a big flop raise i am having trouble figuring out what it means.

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What you mean big, it's <pot (assuming krantz opened to 3bb).

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its much larger than normal for HU matches. most people just go 3x or something slightly higher.

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is PA most ppl?

I would stay away from making a big read on him pot raising a flop...

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I wasn't saying this was not standard for PA, just explaining why jfish might have thought it was odd and why something might be read into it.

Obviously if this was standard cr size nobody cares.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

i dont think that the turn or the river allow us to narrow down his range at all since they are both such good cards to continue bluffing with...

i guess once you account for the times that he value bets worse combined with the fact that his range for air is the same as it was on the flop i would imagine this is a call but it really comes down how often he is cring paired flops

(also i can see a fold with a clear level based read)

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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I think a flop 3bet is a massive mistake, for a couple reasons. It might be ok if the board was like 742 w/ 2 clubs , but the fact that the board is paired, as well as the fact that we are 80k deep- not 60k or 40k makes 3betting a real big mistake. I doubt you get a fold from bigish hands, and you probably get played back at w/ a lot of bigger draws.


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My problem with calling is that we haven't done anything to define his range since he basically check-raises everything, and overcards still have a ton of equity. I guess we can shove turn on a blank, but if he checks are we going to fire? I feel like calling is going to result in him showing down A high or something.

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So? I'd rather 3bet with total air here. What are you doing if 4 bet?

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obviously calling, and while that's a bad result in a vacuum, it has some pretty solid benefits:

a) we get a good idea of the kinds of hands he's willing to stack off with on this flop, and he's going to respond to flop 3bets

b) he sees us take a completely weird line

I think these benefits + making him fold a jillion hands with 40% equity make a 3bet pretty nice.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

I think we can summarize that calling flop is the best flop play and that raising or calling turn are both valid options but due to the stacksizes and history calling the turn seems superior.
What really bothers me is the question if PA calls a river allin with a flush.
If this is not the case then raising the river has lots of merits as well.
We would turn our flush into a bluff but there is a very little chance he has TT and if we could make him fold a better hand that would be a superb result.
Obviously the only one able to judge that play is Krantz himself, because it requires a lot of background knowledge about PA's play and their session.
About calling or folding the river, as discussed either option is thin and irockhoess made a valid point about metagaming/our image.
I would tend to call here but I don't think folding can be any wrong and I haven't seen convincing arguments to put one option far above another.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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obviously calling, and while that's a bad result in a vacuum, it has some pretty solid benefits:


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Against what range could it possibly be correct to get in 200bbs w/ a gutter and 8 high flush draw here, on a paired board? Getting in your stack here would be real bad.

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a) we get a good idea of the kinds of hands he's willing to stack off with on this flop, and he's going to respond to flop 3bets

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No, we really don't. We get an idea of 1 hand he will 4bet shove w/ on 466...

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b) he sees us take a completely weird line

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This is true, don't know what it means though.

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I think these benefits + making him fold a jillion hands with 40% equity make a 3bet pretty nice.

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100bb deep sure, maybe even 150. 200bb its just a spew.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Krantz: How often do you push turn here with ace high flush and how often do you push turn with this hand?

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

How about shoving the turn?

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

I think he knows where you are at in this hand and you gotta fold.

After the b/c flop and call turn, he has you to give you credit for a piece of that board.(or maybe not? - this is dependant on your play I guess)

If he plays reckless at paired boards I think the 45k river bet is the only valuable piece of info you have.

fold

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

****disclaimer* I am not a HSNL player****

Doesn't the meat of this hand occur on the turn, specifically when you call his pot size bet? Everything up to and including his turn bet is pretty standard between you 2, no?

And from your description, he expects you to fold on the turn a good percentage of the time.

So, when you call his turn bet, doesn't that say you have a pretty big hand? You'd probably raise 2 pair, or a huge draw somewhere in the hand ( from your description again). Any mediocre hand has to protect itself on the turn in what is turning out to be a big pot on a draw-heavy board. You've pushed top pair/2pair type hands in the past, and you're not drawing in this spot.

So, he knows you have a hand, and overbets the river! I think he's full and is representing a bluff. He could have over-bet the turn (with a 6)expecting you to fold most of the time, but gets more $ in when you do call. Now that he has the best hand, he over-bets again, selling the bluff, and getting even more $$ in.

mark

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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obviously calling, and while that's a bad result in a vacuum, it has some pretty solid benefits:


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Against what range could it possibly be correct to get in 200bbs w/ a gutter and 8 high flush draw here, on a paired board? Getting in your stack here would be real bad.


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equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.301% 58.92% 00.38% 48997 318.00 { JJ-99, 66, 44, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac7c, A6s, Ac3c, Ac2c, KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, QcJc, QcTc, Qc9c, JcTc, Jc9c, Jc8c, Tc9c, Tc8c, T6s, 9c7c, 96s, 86s, 64s+, A6o, 86o, 76o, 65o }
Hand 1: 40.699% 40.32% 00.38% 33527 318.00 { 8c5c }

not that bad, and I don't know if he's 4betting all these hands, considering he's not going to put us on a draw, and obviously doesn't expect us to fold anything we're raising for value. The hands that he is least likely to shove are the ones that are especially bad for us:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 71.717% 68.99% 02.73% 683 27.00 { 9c7c }
Hand 1: 28.283% 25.56% 02.73% 253 27.00 { 8c5c }

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a) we get a good idea of the kinds of hands he's willing to stack off with on this flop, and he's going to respond to flop 3bets

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No, we really don't. We get an idea of 1 hand he will 4bet shove w/ on 466...


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If he calls, it's great for us, and we can probably get to showdown in those cases. And I think having an idea of how light he wants to stack off for 200bbs on this kind of flop is worth more than you are giving it credit for.


Anyway, 3betting is clearly not the best play, but I think it's a pretty interesting idea

edit: also, if we make a very small, even min-3bet, I think it puts a similar amount of pressure on him, increases the chance he calls, and makes it tougher for him to 4-bet shove

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

Yeah I dont play HSNL...

How does Krantz play a 6? Does he 4-bet the flop. How does he play a 4? Could he concievably get to the river with a four like this? (Or do you fold the flop with a 4 here? - For example if you had A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] could you get to the river like this ?)

Sorry if they were totally unnecessary questions.

The point I am driving at is that the texture of the board is so co-ordinated that for PA to bluff here profitablly doesnt he need to be fairly sure that when he does go to showdown he wins? Seems like Krant'z hand is fairly well defined by the river as being flush/boat/overpair?

Couldnt PA simply be valubetting 6x/T6/TT or even a four? LIke I get that there is alot of "if I know that he knows that I know" crap going on, so when that's the case isnt the best play to just assume that your flush is at the bottom of PA's river betting range and fold?

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.301% 58.92% 00.38% 48997 318.00 { JJ-99, 66, 44, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac7c, A6s, Ac3c, Ac2c, KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, QcJc, QcTc, Qc9c, JcTc, Jc9c, Jc8c, Tc9c, Tc8c, T6s, 9c7c, 96s, 86s, 64s+, A6o, 86o, 76o, 65o }
Hand 1: 40.699% 40.32% 00.38% 33527 318.00 { 8c5c }

not that bad...

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That looks way off, we should only have like 1/3 of the pot here.

Re: a hand vs PA, 200/400 HU
 

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equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.301% 58.92% 00.38% 48997 318.00 { JJ-99, 66, 44, AcTc, Ac9c, Ac7c, A6s, Ac3c, Ac2c, KcQc, KcJc, KcTc, QcJc, QcTc, Qc9c, JcTc, Jc9c, Jc8c, Tc9c, Tc8c, T6s, 9c7c, 96s, 86s, 64s+, A6o, 86o, 76o, 65o }
Hand 1: 40.699% 40.32% 00.38% 33527 318.00 { 8c5c }

not that bad...

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That looks way off, we should only have like 1/3 of the pot here.

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eq is way lower... dont forget that some of those combos play differently sometimes etc etc. I like ur line and i puke/flip a coin on river jay...