Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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The fact that he merely calls the flop kinda makes me think ZJ was trying to extract value from perhaps a pocket pair below 8's. I don't see how else you could justify a call there.

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You can't "extract value" from a call. LOL.

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what about if its an aggressive call?

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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I dont even call here if I think my opponent is bluffing

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you have to play to win. if you think hes bluffing you have to make the call

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=IMk5sMHj58I

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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The fact that he merely calls the flop kinda makes me think ZJ was trying to extract value from perhaps a pocket pair below 8's. I don't see how else you could justify a call there.

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You can't "extract value" from a call. LOL.

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when I say 'extract value' I mean take advantage of the fact that your opponent in that instance would be effectively dead. You would be calling to take advantage of your opponent trying to bluff you -say by shoving the turn- or value calling raising you on a later street.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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. 5 minutes in the tank and calls with pair of 8's why dont you just admit it's a bad call...

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no such thing as a bad call. YOU GET TO SEE THEIR [censored] CARDS

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Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

Random thought random thought random thought random thought durrr durrr durr durrr durrr zomg zomg z0mg meow chow.

Sometimes people are wrong.

When they happen to be great mtt players holy [censored] do we over-react.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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when I say 'extract value' I mean take advantage of the fact that your opponent in that instance would be effectively dead. You would be calling to take advantage of your opponent trying to bluff you -say by shoving the turn- or value calling raising you on a later street.

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You mean bluff-catching, which is what ZJ is obv trying to do? Any non-set PP shoving here is a bluff.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

OMFG STOP DISCUSSING STRAT IN NVG. SOME OF THE TARDS IN THIS THREAD ARE THE REASON I HAVE TO TAKE MONTH LONG BREAKS FROM 2+2 TO TRY AND RECOVER MY LOST INTELLIGENCE FROM READING "TARDS ATTEMPT STRAT" IN NVG.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

I would have folded in that spot. I guess that's pretty irrefutable proof that I'm better than ZeeJustin

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

Maybe because villain is bad.

With blinds at 1.5/3k

Mike Vela raises to 20,000 on the button. The big blind reraises to 50,000 and Vela reraises to 100,000. The big blind moves all in and Vela calls the additional 52,000. The big blind shows AK and Vela turns over J-10. The board comes J-8-3-5-Q and Vela doubles up.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

value betting worse than a paire of 8's here? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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I dont even call here if I think my opponent is bluffing

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THANK YOUUUU MY POINT EXACTLY... u can say all you want about oh he was at the table blah blah blah so what? the point is he made a bad call when could have waited for much better spot because he is probably better than half the field left no need to call there... so shutup with the ooo he had a read etc he was at the table saw how he was playing... bad call... -ev period.

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Ok? Seriously, who cares? So he doesn't play every single hand perfect, who gives a [censored]

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

clearly he didnt call the flop to try to get more value out of his eights. he called because he though he had the best hand, which isnt that far fetched. when his opponent moves in for a ridiculous overbet (there is less that 100k in the pot right?) justin obviously reconsidered and came up with the wrong decision. was it a bad call? as it turned out it was but there is a fine line between doofus and genius. when the guy moves all in for such an overbet he basically has an ace or is bluffing. he is not gonna make that play with only a jack or with a pair of tens or something similar. that doesnt make it a good call or anything but it is not as crazy as some people think it is. and for the guy who speculated that you have infinite time to catch someone bluffing, you obviously dont play tournaments. you have far from an unlimited time period to catch bluffers and accumulate chips.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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I dont even call here if I think my opponent is bluffing

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right because he could think he is bluffing and still have a better hand.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

yes im sure someone of zeejustins skill could have folded and waited for a better spot to get all his chips in the middle if thats what he needed to do. sounds like his stack was enuff where he could wait a while longer, but he got that stack makeing those plays.maybe hes full steam ahead and doesnt slow down. dario m prime example of that, if he could switch gears he might win one.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

how many chips did zeejustin have?

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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how many chips did zeejustin have?

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None obv

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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he thought the other guy was bluffing maybe?

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Figured someone would say that.... 5 minutes in the tank and calls with pair of 8's why dont you just admit it's a bad call...

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One does not contradict the other.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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I dont even call here if I think my opponent is bluffing

[/ QUOTE ]bad call... -ev period.

[/ QUOTE ]Ok? Seriously, who cares? So he doesn't play every single hand perfect, who gives a [censored]

[/ QUOTE ] I do. Thanks to jmill for his comment. One of the most insightful straight responses in this thread.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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He made an intentionally bad call to negate his edge at the other tables. AMIRITE PPL

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at this point the only way these jokes are funny is if they are super clever, this one failed

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Disagree. Joke timely, clever, and fit in perfectly with others. Highly LoLoLish.

It is however, virtually always a unpleasant to pass judgement and assume you know what others will like or dislike. (Unless you are a paid critic and someone actually wants and solicits your opinion.)

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

Since Vela had Bonomo covered, the push was for about 280K into about a 94K pot.

Bonomo was undoubtably raising a lot of hands on the bubble. Vela has Bonomo covered, and may also have been playing aggressively. Bonomo probably thought it was a bluff. It was still probably a bad call.

The dealer probably recovered the hand because of the rule that hands be turned face up when both players are allin.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

this post is gay enough to get me to sign up for this [censored]... Zee Justin thought he was gonna be an example/baller like JC... but he lost the hand... hand woulda stuck if he won.. nh Zee... NH

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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I dont even call here if I think my opponent is bluffing

[/ QUOTE ]bad call... -ev period.

[/ QUOTE ]Ok? Seriously, who cares? So he doesn't play every single hand perfect, who gives a [censored]

[/ QUOTE ] I do. Thanks to jmill for his comment. One of the most insightful straight responses in this thread.



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Oh snap! That jmill guy just got burned imo

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

come on more zj jokes plez... dont let it ever be over =P

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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Ok? Seriously, who cares? So he doesn't play every single hand perfect, who gives a [censored]

[/ QUOTE ] I do.

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Get a life

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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Since Vela had Bonomo covered, the push was for about 280K into about a 94K pot.

Bonomo was undoubtably raising a lot of hands on the bubble. Vela has Bonomo covered, and may also have been playing aggressively. Bonomo probably thought it was a bluff. It was still probably a bad call.

The dealer probably recovered the hand because of the rule that hands be turned face up when both players are allin.

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Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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Since Vela had Bonomo covered, the push was for about 280K into about a 94K pot.

Bonomo was undoubtably raising a lot of hands on the bubble. Vela has Bonomo covered, and may also have been playing aggressively. Bonomo probably thought it was a bluff. It was still probably a bad call.

The dealer probably recovered the hand because of the rule that hands be turned face up when both players are allin.

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Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

OMG - The other guy outsmarted Zee with his overbet and somehow induced a call. Zee made a bad decision. Nobody ever makes incorrect decisions in poker.
It's the end of the world!!!!

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

When ZJ flat called the flop, Zela figured ZJ had a high pp, a weak ace or something like that. Most people wouldn't call with second pair no kicker, but the push was either a big hand or a pure bluff. People generally don't make overbet bluffs, so the call was questionable.

When there are paired aces on the board, there can often be a lot of action whether or not anyone connected. It sounds like these guys were both playing a lot of hands on the bubble and could easily be in the hand preflop without an ace.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

Meh, I've always got the impression ZJ tries too hard to make non-obvious smart barely +EV plays. Sometimes he takes it too far.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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. 5 minutes in the tank and calls with pair of 8's why dont you just admit it's a bad call...

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no such thing as a bad call. they're always bluffing. or value betting worse

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So true. haha.

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lmao'ed

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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the other 5 accounts are safely in the money already?

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lol

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

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this post is gay enough to get me to sign up for this [censored]... Zee Justin thought he was gonna be an example/baller like JC... but he lost the hand... hand woulda stuck if he won.. nh Zee... NH

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gimmick account?

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

Obv it was a terrible call on my part, but then again, if he was bluffing, I don't know if I would still be saying that.

The action is slightly wrong.

2 minutes left on the clock, 52 players left (50 cash), last level of the day.

I open the CO to 16k (3k/6k). Button calls. Button is somewhat new to the table, but I can tell he is loose, bluffy, and tries to be tricky.

Flop AA8 2 spades. I check call 30k.

Turn offsuit J. I check. Button says all-in. I have about 170k left, and he has me way covered. There is about 105k in the pot at this point, so his bet is a huge overbet.

I tried to put myself in his shoes, but gave him way too much credit. It's pretty unlikely that I have an ace in this spot, and if I do have an ace, there are only two reasons to play it this way.

1) I am slow playing and plan on check raising the turn.
2) I am worried about being out kicked and am not willing to commit all my chips.

In either case, there is no point to move all-in with a big hand. A normal bet gets all my chips in situation 1, and gets some more chips than an all-in would in situation 2.

Basically, it's extremely unlikely I will ever call this all-in, especially on the bubble, so there is no reason to ever shove there for value.

For the same reasons, I think it's an awesome bluff spot for him. Anyway, I gave him too much credit and way over thought the hand.

I hadn't played with him enough to know that he wasn't thinking on the level I was giving him credit for.

There was also some table talk that factored into my decision, but after replaying the hand in my head, the table talk matches more up with the nuts than with a bluff, which is honestly the main reason I think it was a bad call (even forgetting the fact that he flipped over the nuts).

Thorladen teaches his bridge players something I find interesting. If you think someone is bluffing and you call, and they show the nuts, there's a good chance it wasn't a bad call. They probably intentionally made it look like they were bluffing.

It's also a very basic concept. If someone makes an overbet (between 1.25 and 2.5x pot), put yourself in their shoes. If they expect a call, they probably have a hand. If they don't expect a call, they are probably bluffing.

But yeah, bad call, and v. embarrassing to see the dealer flip it over like that after I mucked the hand. Oh well. You win some, you lose some.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

Very level-headed ZJ. Good reply. You cannot always make the right decision and even +galfond_EV decisions don't always produce +chip results.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

thanks ZJ

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

interesting

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

Good repsonse ZJ, you are a class-act.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

Just a shame Zee didnt catch another 8 on the river then the 4th 8 on the ocean and then we can have 51849503 start 15 threads talking about the injustice of the hand.

Re: WTF ZeeJustin
 

Hi ZJ,

Thanks for the honest and interesting reply. I don't agree with the logic that if you call when someone was trying to make it look like they were bluffing, you made a good call. But, I can understand making this call, and it definitely took balls.

I have noticed that you often have said things like, "This is rarely a big hand [when they donkbet big or show some other super-straightforward aggression]," in your blog. I doubt this was the case with this particular gentleman, but I would be concerned about my opponents knowing I think like this in general.