Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

There are no tournies on stars where there are no antes at this round other than pot limit tournies...also the preflop pot is listed in the converter. Not ragging on u, just pointing out.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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hey curtains, can u respond to what i asked earlier about how 22-44 would be different from 55 from the pushing perspective of the CO?

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55 has like 2% more equity against over cards than 22. The higher the pair, the more equity you will have against overcards. At some point this stuff makes a difference.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

According to Sklansky, it is cEV+ to push ATo face up for 53xBB from the SB without ante, so it should be cEV+ to push for 16xBB with ante from HJ.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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There are no tournies on stars where there are no antes at this round other than pot limit tournies...also the preflop pot is listed in the converter. Not ragging on u, just pointing out.

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Dude the sunday million im almost sure there are no antes at this level. Dont they start at like 400-800? I remember they kept changing the structure every time I played, which was quite a while ago.


Ok I stand corrected, never noticed that preflop pot part. I'll keep that in mind for the future, sorry for my rant!

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Yeah but 77 has X% more equity than 55, etc, I was more wondering why the cutoff point would be drawn at 55 instead of all pairs.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Yeah but 77 has X% more equity than 55, etc, I was more wondering why the cutoff point would be drawn at 55 instead of all pairs.

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I dunno, you are the one who said 55 and KQs, not me. Anyway all the math was bogus because of the antes. I'd probably cut it off around 77-66.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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There are no tournies on stars where there are no antes at this round other than pot limit tournies...also the preflop pot is listed in the converter. Not ragging on u, just pointing out.

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Dude the sunday million im almost sure there are no antes at this level. Dont they start at like 400-800?


Ok I stand corrected, never noticed that preflop pot part. I'll keep that in mind for the future, sorry for my rant!

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The coverter gives the pot at 1300, which means 300/600/50.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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There are no tournies on stars where there are no antes at this round other than pot limit tournies...also the preflop pot is listed in the converter. Not ragging on u, just pointing out.

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Dude the sunday million im almost sure there are no antes at this level. Dont they start at like 400-800?


Ok I stand corrected, never noticed that preflop pot part. I'll keep that in mind for the future, sorry for my rant!

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Ohh yea u are right about the million, however that structure doesn't come in to play anywhere else but Sunday, literally every single other tourney has antes at the 300/600 level. my bad

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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There are no tournies on stars where there are no antes at this round other than pot limit tournies...also the preflop pot is listed in the converter. Not ragging on u, just pointing out.

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Dude the sunday million im almost sure there are no antes at this level. Dont they start at like 400-800?


Ok I stand corrected, never noticed that preflop pot part. I'll keep that in mind for the future, sorry for my rant!

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Ohh yea u are right about the million, however that structure doesn't come in to play anywhere else but Sunday, literally every single other tourney has antes at the 300/600 level. my bad

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Yeah I dunno what they are doing over there. I try to contribute to this forum without ever playing any tourneys online [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Usually one doesn't expect to have to do such detective work to figure out the antes. When one looks at the blinds and it reads 300/600, one assumes that is the structure. I now know better and hopefully will not make this mistake in the future, but I do think that it's a silly way of formatting things.

Anyway I now think it's very close between open pushing and making a standardish raise with the intention of just making the best decision depending on what happens. I wouldn't blame anyone much for taking either choice.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

re: earlier i just hate raise folding to any sort of aggressive player because it seems that no one folds any sort of pair, even 22. Now, in this particular situation I would prob call tighter vs stealthmunk but usually I treat AT in this spot as the pure nuts and play it for a raise/snapcall :O

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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re: earlier i just hate raise folding to any sort of aggressive player because it seems that no one folds any sort of pair, even 22. Now, in this particular situation I would prob call tighter vs stealthmunk but usually I treat AT in this spot as the pure nuts and play it for a raise/snapcall :O

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Once you raise and get reraised, you simply calculate what you think your opponent's range is and then call if the odds are in your favor. Of course you need less than the 40.5% that I quoted earlier. Doing the math again I get that you need just 39.2% from a late position raise, which actually isn't that huge of a difference and quite possibly a clear fold against their range.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Open pushing ATo from HJ for 16bb is -cEV unless the calling range is too tight. If you want the exact numbers and math i can do that and post in a few hours.

I assume normal calling range would be top 7-8%. Besides dont forget about ICM. It may not be as important as in SNGs, but its defenitly a big factor.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Open pushing ATo from HJ for 16bb is -cEV unless the calling range is too tight. If you want the exact numbers and math i can do that and post in a few hours.

I assume normal calling range would be top 7-8%. Besides dont forget about ICM. It may not be as important as in SNGs, but its defenitly a big factor.

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Its not 16x BB as I already discovered. There are 50 chip antes.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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re: earlier i just hate raise folding to any sort of aggressive player because it seems that no one folds any sort of pair, even 22. Now, in this particular situation I would prob call tighter vs stealthmunk but usually I treat AT in this spot as the pure nuts and play it for a raise/snapcall :O

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Once you raise and get reraised, you simply calculate what you think your opponent's range is and then call if the odds are in your favor. Of course you need less than the 40.5% that I quoted earlier. Doing the math again I get that you need just 39.2% from a late position raise, which actually isn't that huge of a difference and quite possibly a clear fold against their range.

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Yeah I know....just saying that the ranges are wider here than you are giving credit for imo. Against 22+ AT+ KQ we are getting the proper odds.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

betgo,
If I limped. I think limp fold could be better than lrrai your hands looks really fos and unknowns raise really tight over limps.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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re: earlier i just hate raise folding to any sort of aggressive player because it seems that no one folds any sort of pair, even 22. Now, in this particular situation I would prob call tighter vs stealthmunk but usually I treat AT in this spot as the pure nuts and play it for a raise/snapcall :O

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Once you raise and get reraised, you simply calculate what you think your opponent's range is and then call if the odds are in your favor. Of course you need less than the 40.5% that I quoted earlier. Doing the math again I get that you need just 39.2% from a late position raise, which actually isn't that huge of a difference and quite possibly a clear fold against their range.

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Yeah I know....just saying that the ranges are wider here than you are giving credit for imo. Against 22+ AT+ KQ we are getting the proper odds.

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Well antes change EVERYTHING. We open raise more with antes, other players reraise more because our range should be looser. etc etc. The entire hand is completely different than what I was talking about before I knew there was an ante.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

With no antes, an open push would be for 11x pot, and definately cEV-. With no antes, I would raise small nad generally fold to a reraise.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Ok just finished runing the math. With those stacks, 14 ppl left, with top 9 payed and blinds at 400/800 and 50 ante, the push is - cev.

0.0718 - push
0.075 - fold

The push -EV is huuuge.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Huh? there are 14 left with 9 paying? Where'd you get that from?

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

the arse apparantely

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Just an example obviously. I need some payout structure for calculations. And i can't do the math for 50 or 200 people left.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Just an example obviously. I need some payout structure for calculations. And i can't do the math for 50 or 200 people left.

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but ok using a payout structure like that would definitely negatively affect EV! I was simply using ChipEV, which is pretty close to correct when there are so many players left.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

Redid the math and it's a slightly -cEV move vs a 7% calling range. Even with the antes.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

i have no idea where u are getting that from but it is wrong. a shove is worth about 226 chips giving everyone 66+,ATs+,AJo+

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

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Ok just finished runing the math. With those stacks, 14 ppl left, with top 9 payed and blinds at 400/800 and 50 ante, the push is - cev.

0.0718 - push
0.075 - fold

The push -EV is huuuge.

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This is still early, start of 3rd hour. If this were close to the final table, then the push might be $EV-.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

66+, AJ+ is tighter then 7%.

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

i'm not sure what u are using to distinguish 7%

pokerstove sees 7% as 88+,ATs+,KTs+,AQo+

sngpt sees 7% as 77+,AJo+,ATs+

66+,ATs+,AJo+ is looser than both of those (8% in pokerstove)

Re: $50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off
 

You are right djk. Sorry for missinformation.

8028+1995 vs 9800.