Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I were just ranking RBs based on what they've accomplished this season, I'd probably go:

1. Felix Jones
2. Darren McFadden
3. Jonathan Stewart
4. Rashard Mendenhall
5. Matt Forte
6. Jamaal Charles
7. Chris Wells
8. Javon Ringer
9. Kevin Smith
10. Mike Hart

Hart's a good back, but he's nowhere near as good as the Michigan fans make him out to me. His biggest strength is that he can carry the ball a lot without fumbling, but even that's not very meaningful if he can't stay healthy.

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He's been pretty healthy throughout his career. He's not the fastest. He's not the biggest. But he still doesn't get tackled very easily and he is probably more similar to Barry Sanders than anyone else in college right now. I've had my doubts about him, but the more you see of him, the better you realize he is.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mike hart FTW if he hadnt been slowed down by injury....still going to NY anyway and is best COLLEGE player in country (not NFL projections like some would liek to do for the heisman, i.e. mcfadden playing on a terrible team and being upstaged for entire games by felix jones)

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I don't understand this distinction between best college player and best NFL player. McFadden is just plain better than Mike Hart. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]


yawn

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

One thing that really angers me. At this point in the year, wiht 75% of the season behind us, people should not be going from "Front-runner" to "Not a chance". I realize this is just mainstream media being stupid and over-reacting. But we have so much data at this point that one game, absent extremes like rushing for 300 yards or throwing 7 INTs, shouldn't move you around that much.

Of course, if Matt Ryan was the "clear front-runner" after the VaTech game then it's obvious trying to find logic in this process is silly.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Dixon













2)Some other guys

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This is about how I'd rank them. Even though I'm really rooting for Superman, his Georgia game killed his chances unless Dixon stumbles.

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Really? Tebow is really close IMHO & would be winning if it weren't for the UGA loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

TFG,

It's to the point where Tebow and Dixon are sort of similar in terms of overall performance in a way. I think that the main difference is Jonathon Stewart vs. Kestahn Moore. Basically Tebow is UF's rushing game whereas Dixon has a great one instead.

Either way, unless Oregon loses a couple games, I think their top 5 ranking and Tebow's injury plagued game are going to kill his chances. If they're even remotely close in the end, Dixon will get the nod because he isn't a sophomore.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mike hart FTW if he hadnt been slowed down by injury....still going to NY anyway and is best COLLEGE player in country (not NFL projections like some would liek to do for the heisman, i.e. mcfadden playing on a terrible team and being upstaged for entire games by felix jones)

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference between "best college player" and "best NFL prospect" is vanishingly small for RBs. What you are talking about is "MVP of college football" or something inane that is actually based on how good his team is and the schedule they play. I'd be willing to say that the 5 best RBs are the 5 best RB prospects in the NFL, and its probably in exact order.

This is not true for, say QB, as much as RB, though.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mike hart FTW if he hadnt been slowed down by injury....still going to NY anyway and is best COLLEGE player in country (not NFL projections like some would liek to do for the heisman, i.e. mcfadden playing on a terrible team and being upstaged for entire games by felix jones)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand this distinction between best college player and best NFL player. McFadden is just plain better than Mike Hart. Period.

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Yes.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
McFadden is just plain better than Mike Hart. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]
QFT--He has done way more in a much tougher conference. Pretty LOL that all these Michigan fans think hart has a chance to win.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Dixon













2)Some other guys

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This is about how I'd rank them. Even though I'm really rooting for Superman, his Georgia game killed his chances unless Dixon stumbles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Tebow is really close IMHO & would be winning if it weren't for the UGA loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

TFG,

It's to the point where Tebow and Dixon are sort of similar in terms of overall performance in a way. I think that the main difference is Jonathon Stewart vs. Kestahn Moore. Basically Tebow is UF's rushing game whereas Dixon has a great one instead.

Either way, unless Oregon loses a couple games, I think their top 5 ranking and Tebow's injury plagued game are going to kill his chances. If they're even remotely close in the end, Dixon will get the nod because he isn't a sophomore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be suprised if Dixon got it even if they won out.

b

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

My 2 cents here. I don't think Hart has a chance to win the Heisman and from what I've heard he isn't really a top NFL prospect, due to his lack of speed. Typically, as others have mentioned, the top collegiate RBs make top picks in the NFL. I think Hart is an exception. He's had a really good college career, but I don't think he will be a high draft pick (injuries, lack of speed). McFadden is def better.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
But he still doesn't get tackled very easily and he is probably more similar to Barry Sanders than anyone else in college right now.

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lol at barry sanders comparison.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) Dixon













2)Some other guys

[/ QUOTE ]

This is about how I'd rank them. Even though I'm really rooting for Superman, his Georgia game killed his chances unless Dixon stumbles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Tebow is really close IMHO & would be winning if it weren't for the UGA loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

TFG,

It's to the point where Tebow and Dixon are sort of similar in terms of overall performance in a way. I think that the main difference is Jonathon Stewart vs. Kestahn Moore. Basically Tebow is UF's rushing game whereas Dixon has a great one instead.

Either way, unless Oregon loses a couple games, I think their top 5 ranking and Tebow's injury plagued game are going to kill his chances. If they're even remotely close in the end, Dixon will get the nod because he isn't a sophomore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be suprised if Dixon got it even if they won out.

b

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I don't see how you can reach this conclusion when the media chooses who wins the heisman and the consensus right now from the media is that it's Dixon's to lose.

You can argue that he's not as deserving, but I don't see how he doesn't win with three wins unless he has a bad game or two. I think Joey Harrington was in a similar spot and laid an egg in the Civil War and finished 3rd even though we won. I think if Dixon plays decently it's his.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

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But he still doesn't get tackled very easily and he is probably more similar to Barry Sanders than anyone else in college right now.

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lol at barry sanders comparison.

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Why? Not in ability, obviously, but stylistically they are similar (though far from identical).

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

He doesn't have anywhere near the speed or quickness that Sanders had. Honestly, I haven't watched him play enough to comment anymore than that. Maybe his running style is similar. Not in the same class, though, in my opinion.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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1) Dixon













2)Some other guys

[/ QUOTE ]

This is about how I'd rank them. Even though I'm really rooting for Superman, his Georgia game killed his chances unless Dixon stumbles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Tebow is really close IMHO & would be winning if it weren't for the UGA loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

TFG,

It's to the point where Tebow and Dixon are sort of similar in terms of overall performance in a way. I think that the main difference is Jonathon Stewart vs. Kestahn Moore. Basically Tebow is UF's rushing game whereas Dixon has a great one instead.

Either way, unless Oregon loses a couple games, I think their top 5 ranking and Tebow's injury plagued game are going to kill his chances. If they're even remotely close in the end, Dixon will get the nod because he isn't a sophomore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be suprised if Dixon got it even if they won out.

b

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I don't see how you can reach this conclusion when the media chooses who wins the heisman and the consensus right now from the media is that it's Dixon's to lose.

You can argue that he's not as deserving, but I don't see how he doesn't win with three wins unless he has a bad game or two. I think Joey Harrington was in a similar spot and laid an egg in the Civil War and finished 3rd even though we won. I think if Dixon plays decently it's his.

[/ QUOTE ]

Harrington still wouldn't have won it.

When someone from a Pac 10 school other than USC wins then I'll believe it.

b

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

The landscape changes every week. Any mix of bad performance/good performance could change things between Tebow & Dixon. McFadden just has to go crazy regardless.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

fwiw Dixon has been getting a lot of pub on espn lately imo

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

FWIW, every single commentator on CFN has Dixon #1 this week. Herbstreit has him #1 as well and in a national poll on ESPN, over half the country said he's the frontrunner. Saying that he can't win the award because he plays in the Pac-Ten is borderline insane IMO.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

There's enough cross-over between the people currently saying Dixon is the front-runner and the people who actually decide who gets the award, that obviously Dixon is actually the front-runner. It's his trophy to lose, all he has to do is be lights out against Arizona, UCLA, and Oregon State and he wins it. Of course if he slips up like Woodson and then Ryan did, there's plenty of time for a new front-runner to be anointed.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, every single commentator on CFN has Dixon #1 this week. Herbstreit has him #1 as well and in a national poll on ESPN, over half the country said he's the frontrunner. Saying that he can't win the award because he plays in the Pac-Ten is borderline insane IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll believe it if it happens.

When's the last time someone from the pac 10, not USC, has won it?

I'm sure the excuse will be he's splitting votes with Stewart. So, not insane. Plausable actually.

b

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

Did anyone else notice that the U of Oregon took out an ad on ESPN before their game hyping him for the Heisman?

What do you thing that cost to run, a little 30 second spot...

And where did the cash come from?

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did anyone else notice that the U of Oregon took out an ad on ESPN before their game hyping him for the Heisman?

What do you thing that cost to run, a little 30 second spot...

And where did the cash come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Phil Knight or the football program in general. It's stupid and obnoxious (IMO), but I doubt they're jacking everyone's tuition 50 bucks to pay for it.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did anyone else notice that the U of Oregon took out an ad on ESPN before their game hyping him for the Heisman?

What do you thing that cost to run, a little 30 second spot...

And where did the cash come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Same place as their stadium upgrades?

They did the same type of thing for Harrington.

b

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, every single commentator on CFN has Dixon #1 this week. Herbstreit has him #1 as well and in a national poll on ESPN, over half the country said he's the frontrunner. Saying that he can't win the award because he plays in the Pac-Ten is borderline insane IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll believe it if it happens.

When's the last time someone from the pac 10, not USC, has won it?

I'm sure the excuse will be he's splitting votes with Stewart. So, not insane. Plausable actually.

b

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How many Pac 10 players have really been deserving? (Actually asking, I don't remember that well...although "Ryan Leaf" is not correct.)

Also, in defense of the West Coast conspiracy theorists, true, Dixon is the favorite, but this is several weeks late. At the very least Ryan being first after VaTech was a complete joke. Of course, I think "East Coast bias" is way down there on the list of reasons this happened. More important were the "He's on an unbeaten team", "He's a gritty white QB", "He's OMG clutch", and "He left it all on the field literally".

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

1. Dennis Dixon
2. Darren McFadden
3. Chase Daniel-Todd Reesing-Sam Bradford

that's all for now




oh yeah, Mike Hart for most overrated player--just look at the lack of production drop off with him out

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh yeah, Mike Hart for most overrated player--just look at the lack of production drop off with him out

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Other factors could be the reasons for a smaller drop off than expected. Michigan's other RB's could be really good. The opposing team's defense might be weaker when Hart's not in. Watch Hart run and try to convince yourself that he's not a very good RB. (btw...he's led the nation in rushing over the period he's been healthy.)

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

Fellow Michigan fans really, just stop. You can't be injured for as much of the season as Hart has been and still win. He was great when healthy, but his hopes are pretty much shot barring a 6843 yard 43 td performance against OSU.

But the sarcastic lack of production thing with him out is a bit much to say. Henne was injured for a decent amount of time Hart was healthy, and his return to old form undoubtedly helped out Minor and Brown, who are both apparently better than anyone thought. I love the guy to death, but he is not winning the Heisman.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

Hart will make it to NYC simply b/c he'll get a ton of 3rd and 4th place votes. Is he the best back in the country, No, not even close. Does he mean more to his team on and off the field than any other back in the country? Arguably yes. Mike Hart is the epitome of what a collegiate athletic should be and voters will reward him for his outstanding career.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, every single commentator on CFN has Dixon #1 this week. Herbstreit has him #1 as well and in a national poll on ESPN, over half the country said he's the frontrunner. Saying that he can't win the award because he plays in the Pac-Ten is borderline insane IMO.

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I'll believe it if it happens.

When's the last time someone from the pac 10, not USC, has won it?

I'm sure the excuse will be he's splitting votes with Stewart. So, not insane. Plausable actually.

b

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That's stupid. It's like saying when's the last time someone from the ACC won the award that didn't play for Florida State? Well, Florida State dominated the conference for a while and there didn't happen to be any contenders the years that they didn't so no one else won the trophy. So, no one from the ACC but Florida State has ever won the trophy. Likewise, USC has won a lot of Pac-Ten titles and when they weren't winning, no Heisman candidates emerged, so no one else has won the trophy since 1970 (Jim Plunkett).

Also, if you do include USC (and why wouldn't you), the Pac-Ten has 3 of the last 5 Heisman trophies. The SEC which is supposedly the conference everyone favors only has 1 Heisman winner in the last 20 years (Danny Wuerffel). The idea that people still talk about West-Coast bias as if it's relevant to the modern-day is ridiculous.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

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oh yeah, Mike Hart for most overrated player--just look at the lack of production drop off with him out

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Hmm, I would have thought the opposite. I know the backups did okay against Illinois and eventually did good against Minnesota, but the traditional thinking was our backups kind of sucked in limited time. Might be a function of them not getting a chance to get into a rhythm or something as backups.

The dropoff was there against State, and the first half against Minn, and all of 2005, but that isn't particularly relevant (esp since we had different backups now that Grady is hurt).

Sad thing is I find the Heisman one of the stupider awards given that it is an individual award that heavily factors in a team's record and status, so it sucks when my team has a player in contention at some point and I have to care about it.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. Dennis Dixon
2. Darren McFadden
3. Chase Daniel-Todd Reesing-Sam Bradford

that's all for now




oh yeah, Mike Hart for most overrated player--just look at the lack of production drop off with him out

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vs. MSU Hart had 15 carries for 110 yards. Brown and Minor had 8 carries for 4 yards.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you do include USC (and why wouldn't you), the Pac-Ten has 3 of the last 5 Heisman trophies. The SEC which is supposedly the conference everyone favors only has 1 Heisman winner in the last 20 years (Danny Wuerffel). The idea that people still talk about West-Coast bias as if it's relevant to the modern-day is ridiculous.

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The bias isn't what it used to be, but I think it's still there. Just for the fact that the west coast doesn't get as much exposure. There is bias in voting still. See Notre Dame. Brady Quinn was 3rd for heisman? Yeah right. It can be a popularity contest. Also, God knows why Jason White got one.

The Pac is also known as USC and the 9 other teams which is why I could care less about USC's heismans.

Again, I'd like to see Dixon or Stewart get it, but we'll see. I think they both should be strong runners. Which, again, could hurt both of them.

b

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

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Sad thing is I find the Heisman one of the stupider awards given that it is an individual award that heavily factors in a team's record and status

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did anyone else notice that the U of Oregon took out an ad on ESPN before their game hyping him for the Heisman?

What do you thing that cost to run, a little 30 second spot...

And where did the cash come from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Phil Knight

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One nice thing about being an Oregon fan is I get to see my favorite team's logo basically any time I watch any sporting event. Even our opponents put our logo on their jersies:

http://www.turfsm.com/uploaded_image...361-739079.gif

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. Dennis Dixon
2. Darren McFadden
3. Chase Daniel-Todd Reesing-Sam Bradford

that's all for now




oh yeah, Mike Hart for most overrated player--just look at the lack of production drop off with him out

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Have things changed a bit?

1)Tebow
2)Dixon
.....
3)Everyone else

That said, I think DD is going to win because he isn't a sophmore & he has the better games left. If the Gators slip in to the SECCG, then Tebow will have a better shot.

-Mock vote by Heisman voters:
"One voter who submitted a ballot with Tebow at the top said he expected to move him down because he didn't think the award should go to an underclassmen ahead of a senior who won't have another shot."

Unreal, award is obviously rigged regardless.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

Right now my ballot is:
1) Dennis Tebow
2) Tim Dixon
3) There are other candidates?

TT definitely has the better overall stats, but I think the fact that DD has much better running backs is the primary reason for that. He gets fewer passing yards because Oregon runs the ball more as a team, and he gets fewer rushing yards (and TDs) because Oregon can have Jonathan Stewart handle a lot of those carries. Also, DD has done it despite massive injuries to his receiving corps. All those are reasons why TT shouldn't automatically win it because of better stats. They are NOT reasons why DD should be ahead of TT. Right now it's completely neck and neck.

I do agree that it's ridiculous (but true) that the deciding factor will probably be team records and Senior vs. Sophomore. If you factor those things in, and look at who actually *will* win, not who *should*, DD probably is still the clear favorite at the moment. It should be neck and neck though.

Meh, I won't complain too much if the QB on my favorite team takes home the trophy by default, even if the system is flawed [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

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3) There are other candidates?


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kansas and missouri have one loss combined. and their QB's are top 20 in passing yards. not sure how much consideration they'll get. daniel has been getting some recognition and kansas QB (rissling?? i can never remember) will start to get some..... might throw in pat white too. would be better if he hadn't been injured, and they hadn't lost to SF.

if you cut tebow slack for 3 losses, then there's tons of great statistical RB, QB and WR who deserve tons of consideration..

but given it's some weird popularity contest, we have what we have.....

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

There are tons of great statistical players, but not many who mean anywhere NEAR as much to their team as Dixon or Tebow. It depends on whether you view the Heisman as being an MVP equivalent or not, but if you do, it's hard to find anyone who compares favorably to Dixon and Tebow. Well, unless you look at the mid-majors, but we obviously don't care about THEM, this is the HEISMAN TROPHY!!! Yeah, anyway, Daniel and Riessling are definitely both good, and deserve some consideration, but right now I think they're a little bit back still. Neither of them has shown quite the tendency to just take over a game completely like Dixon or Tebow each have on multiple occasions, imo.

I was being facetious with my #3 though, obviously there ARE other candidates. I think as of right now the gap between two and three is pretty big though.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

fair enough on the mid-major comment. i have to concur. smith with UCF or tulane RB don't realistically deserve much consideration...

but check out what chase daniel means to missouri. check our their record before he started there (actually i guess they were o.k. with brad smith)... but seriously, i'd say his importance to missouri >>> than that of tebow or dixon to their teams. i mean, florida won the national title last year with another QB and now has 3 losses. so let's over-estimate tebow's impact.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

Daniel is a pretty huge player for Missou. Tebow is basically the entire Florida offense though, while Oregon has one of the best offenses in the country and having watched all of their games this year I can definitely say that this is due very heavily to Dixon's fantastic decision making and ability to control the offense. I think those two are definitely a step ahead of anyone else. Then again I haven't watched Daniel almost at all this year, I very well might not be giving him enough credit. I don't think I'm over-estimating Tebow, but I acknowledge I could well be under-estimating Daniel. As well as some other people who probably deserve to be in the discussion.

Re: Heisman Rankings
 

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Tebow is basically the entire Florida offense though

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tebow has been amazing. has great talent with him though too. harvin especially. but given the lack of emphasis on the tailback, tebow does play a huge role, i concur.

i think it's absolutely amazing that kansas/missouri will likely be meeting in 2 weeks with one loss combined.. they are in the mediocre Big 12 North, i will point that out. you could argue that with K not playing okla, tx and either TAM or TT (can't remember) that it's somewhat special situation...

good chatting with you about it... seems we both have a huge passion for NCAAF. too bad it's only a couple more weeks.