Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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PartyGirl,

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If he is at all competent he will be randomizing enough to make it pretty much neutral EV for Timex.

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Lol at this. Do u know how hard this is? Do u have any idea?

Dont answer pls.

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...

Nezzar, being completely objective here, Jeff and PartyGirl are pretty much right about this hand...

The only thing I see interesting about it is that it was a large pot and Timex called down. The ace is nearly an irrelevant card at these stakes because good players are jamming TT-KK on the river, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with the ace being irrelevant. Consider how timex would play A-J. I think he would play it exactly the same. At least i would...

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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i agree and dont post a tournament hand at 100/200 blinds and pretend its 100/200 no limit, there 2 completely different things, and this is the wrong forum for it

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Why would u think its a tournament hand?

Results and thoughts...
 

Ok thanks for the input. Zupp showed 8-9s.

I still think its a very interesting hand but I have to consider that its a slight possibility that im wrong here [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], especially since alot of respected posters had said so...

The ace on the river is the best possible card for both players (all agree on this right?) and that is what makes this hand interesting. Zupp can have only one and only one hand that beat us and when thats the case its usaually correct to call...

I think its an easy call (but still brilliant) when you go thorugh Zupps handrange and when u consider what zupp think about Timex handrange, but thats in retrospect. Im curious as to what other posters think? Is this a good or bad call?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

yea I don't get why people think this is a tournament hand

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok thanks for the input. Zupp showed 8-9s.

I still think its a very interesting hand but I have to consider that its a slight possibility that im wrong here [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], especially since alot of respected posters had said so...

The ace on the river is the best possible card for both players (all agree on this right?) and that is what makes this hand interesting. Zupp can have only one and only one hand that beat us and when thats the case its usaually correct to call...

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huh?
99+ is good and zupp can have almost any of the overpairs, any A and an 8 right? so that makes like a gajillion hands that beat us...

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

[ QUOTE ]
The ace on the river is the best possible card for both players (all agree on this right?) and that is what makes this hand interesting. Zupp can have only one and only one hand that beat us and when thats the case its usaually correct to call...

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Wait, what?? You're not even arguing wether or not Zapp is value-shoving JJ-KK here but that he is only showing up with quads or a bluff? That is absolutely ridiculous. The only way the A is a better card for Timex to attempt a (bad) hero-call on than a blank is if Zapp's play is very unbalanced and exploitable.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PartyGirl,

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If he is at all competent he will be randomizing enough to make it pretty much neutral EV for Timex.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol at this. Do u know how hard this is? Do u have any idea?

Dont answer pls.

[/ QUOTE ]

...

Nezzar, being completely objective here, Jeff and PartyGirl are pretty much right about this hand...

The only thing I see interesting about it is that it was a large pot and Timex called down. The ace is nearly an irrelevant card at these stakes because good players are jamming TT-KK on the river, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with the ace being irrelevant. Consider how timex would play A-J. I think he would play it exactly the same. At least i would...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think Zupp checks back QQ and KK because of this?

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok thanks for the input. Zupp showed 8-9s.

I still think its a very interesting hand but I have to consider that its a slight possibility that im wrong here [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], especially since alot of respected posters had said so...

The ace on the river is the best possible card for both players (all agree on this right?) and that is what makes this hand interesting. Zupp can have only one and only one hand that beat us and when thats the case its usaually correct to call...

I think its an easy call (but still brilliant) when you go thorugh Zupps handrange and when u consider what zupp think about Timex handrange, but thats in retrospect. Im curious as to what other posters think? Is this a good or bad call?



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wow it is NOT 1 hand that beats us. JJ+, Ax, 8x...

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

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Ok thanks for the input. Zupp showed 8-9s.

I still think its a very interesting hand but I have to consider that its a slight possibility that im wrong here [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img], especially since alot of respected posters had said so...

The ace on the river is the best possible card for both players (all agree on this right?) and that is what makes this hand interesting. Zupp can have only one and only one hand that beat us and when thats the case its usaually correct to call...

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?
99+ is good and zupp can have almost any of the overpairs, any A and an 8 right? so that makes like a gajillion hands that beat us...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh, 99+ is good but Zupp have to consider that an ace is in timex hand range and that he would play it the same (at least i would). Also Zupp would check behind on turn with a big part of his acehigh range for obvoius reasons. Im feeling that im not getting throu here... You have to realize why the Ace on the river is such a Goldcard for both players... It narrows down zupps handrange to bluff or nuts.

I would call an 8-8-8-5-A board and fold an 8-8-8-5-2. Thats why the hand is interesting.

Look at this hand i played yesterday its the same concept:

** Game ID 859269676 starting - 2007-10-29 06:33:46
** Krakatoa [Hold 'em] (50.00|100.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- Nebuchad sitting in seat 5 with $46484.00
- pinkDeeevil sitting in seat 6 with $13350.00 [Dealer]

pinkDeeevil posted the small blind - $50.00
Nebuchad posted the big blind - $100.00

** Dealing card to Nebuchad: 6 of Spades, 6 of Hearts
pinkDeeevil raised - $350.00
Nebuchad called - $350.00

** Dealing the flop: 3 of Clubs, 5 of Spades, 8 of Diamonds
Nebuchad checked
pinkDeeevil bet - $700.00
Nebuchad called - $700.00

** Dealing the turn: Queen of Hearts
Nebuchad checked
pinkDeeevil bet - $1850.00
Nebuchad called - $1850.00

** Dealing the river: Ace of Hearts
Nebuchad checked
pinkDeeevil bet - $3850.00
Nebuchad called - $3850.00
pinkDeeevil shows: 6 of Diamonds, 7 of Diamonds
Nebuchad shows: 6 of Spades, 6 of Hearts
Nebuchad wins $13499.00 from the main pot

End of game 859269676

Now if the river would have been an 8, 5 or 3 I would have folded even tho it improves my hand. Do you see what im getting at?

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

Ehrm, you do realize that if AJ is a hand Timex should be calling on turn it means that he is doing this because Zupp fires a wide range on turn. Now, if this is true, this is the exact reason why Zupp SHOULD VB thin river, do you see why? You want Zupp to fire a wide range on turn and just give up 9 times out of 10 on river, or do you want Timex turncall with AJ to be really bad? You cannot have it both ways.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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PartyGirl,

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If he is at all competent he will be randomizing enough to make it pretty much neutral EV for Timex.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol at this. Do u know how hard this is? Do u have any idea?

Dont answer pls.

[/ QUOTE ]

...

Nezzar, being completely objective here, Jeff and PartyGirl are pretty much right about this hand...

The only thing I see interesting about it is that it was a large pot and Timex called down. The ace is nearly an irrelevant card at these stakes because good players are jamming TT-KK on the river, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with the ace being irrelevant. Consider how timex would play A-J. I think he would play it exactly the same. At least i would...

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So you think Zupp checks back QQ and KK because of this?

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No but def. not go allin for slightly more than pot on the river. i think he would try to bet less to get value from a lower pocket. Thats why i exclude any pocket pair (except AA) from zupps range when he goes allin on river.

Edit: i exclude AA also.

edit2: Im not sure about AA. I have to think about some more... so its maybe in his range for now.

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ehrm, you do realize that if AJ is a hand Timex should be calling on turn it means that he is doing this because Zupp fires a wide range on turn. Now, if this is true, this is the exact reason why Zupp SHOULD VB thin river, do you see why? You want Zupp to fire a wide range on turn and just give up 9 times out of 10 on river, or do you want Timex turncall with AJ to be really bad? You cannot have it both ways.

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Yes! finally we are getting somewhere! Zupp def should VB THIN on river. Now this hands shows some deep level thinking. To find out what best to call turn with against zupps range u have to do some math. What do u guesstimate AJ or 77?

one more thing, zupp must bet some of his range on turn for protection, showdown and suckout value.

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

yawn.

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

Nezzar,

My gut feeling is that the shove (as opposed to a smaller value bet) polarizing Zupp's range between an A/8 and a bluff is wrong. You say that timex can have AJ here, but it seems much more likely that he has 22-99 (probably more 22-77). I'm more than willing to be wrong on this one though.

However, I do have a question:

After the turn action, but before the river, who do you think has more aces in their range?

Re: Results and thoughts...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nezzar,

My gut feeling is that the shove (as opposed to a smaller value bet) polarizing Zupp's range between an A/8 and a bluff is wrong. You say that timex can have AJ here, but it seems much more likely that he has 22-99 (probably more 22-77). I'm more than willing to be wrong on this one though.

However, I do have a question:

After the turn action, but before the river, who do you think has more aces in their range?

[/ QUOTE ]

first, interesting question.

On turn I would say timex by far, wouldnt you? As for river its timex by miles.

As for the shove polarizing zupps range im not saying he has an ace, 8 or bluff. im saying he has a bluff or 8. but i could ofc be wrong as well [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. Its simply my belief.


Edit: I think that poker is just in its childhood. there are a lot of complex work that havent been done with hand ranges. I hope this will take as long as possible because im afraid that in the next ten years it will develop to a completly different level and the games will be almost impossible for you and me. Phil Galfond pls be happy with just playing and making money and dont do any work on this. PLEASE!

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PartyGirl,

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If he is at all competent he will be randomizing enough to make it pretty much neutral EV for Timex.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol at this. Do u know how hard this is? Do u have any idea?

Dont answer pls.

[/ QUOTE ]

...

Nezzar, being completely objective here, Jeff and PartyGirl are pretty much right about this hand...

The only thing I see interesting about it is that it was a large pot and Timex called down. The ace is nearly an irrelevant card at these stakes because good players are jamming TT-KK on the river, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with the ace being irrelevant. Consider how timex would play A-J. I think he would play it exactly the same. At least i would...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think Zupp checks back QQ and KK because of this?

[/ QUOTE ]

No but def. not go allin for slightly more than pot on the river. i think he would try to bet less to get value from a lower pocket. Thats why i exclude any pocket pair (except AA) from zupps range when he goes allin on river.

Edit: i exclude AA also.

edit2: Im not sure about AA. I have to think about some more... so its maybe in his range for now.

[/ QUOTE ]

this thread is getting better and better. you claim that his range is 100% quads/ace/bluff because he wouldn't value-push the river with TT-KK (he would make a smaller milking bet LOLOL) but then you claim that calling the river with 77 is genius. this is so revolutionary!!!!!! just imagine if zupp had the ability to think about what timex was thinking and push QQ hoping to induce a big-call from 77!!!!! that would be ridiculous deep-level thinking so timex can obviously just exclude that from zupp's range...

btw, i cant even begin to imagine the difference between AA and an ace here...i wanna hear the explanation on that conclusion

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PartyGirl,

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If he is at all competent he will be randomizing enough to make it pretty much neutral EV for Timex.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol at this. Do u know how hard this is? Do u have any idea?

Dont answer pls.

[/ QUOTE ]

...

Nezzar, being completely objective here, Jeff and PartyGirl are pretty much right about this hand...

The only thing I see interesting about it is that it was a large pot and Timex called down. The ace is nearly an irrelevant card at these stakes because good players are jamming TT-KK on the river, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly disagree with the ace being irrelevant. Consider how timex would play A-J. I think he would play it exactly the same. At least i would...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you think Zupp checks back QQ and KK because of this?

[/ QUOTE ]

No but def. not go allin for slightly more than pot on the river. i think he would try to bet less to get value from a lower pocket. Thats why i exclude any pocket pair (except AA) from zupps range when he goes allin on river.

Edit: i exclude AA also.

edit2: Im not sure about AA. I have to think about some more... so its maybe in his range for now.

[/ QUOTE ]

this thread is getting better and better. you claim that his range is 100% quads/ace/bluff because he wouldn't value-push the river with TT-KK (he would make a smaller milking bet LOLOL) but then you claim that calling the river with 77 is genius. this is so revolutionary!!!!!! just imagine if zupp had the ability to think about what timex was thinking and push QQ hoping to induce a big-call from 77!!!!! that would be ridiculous deep-level thinking so timex can obviously just exclude that from zupp's range...

btw, i cant even begin to imagine the difference between AA and an ace here...i wanna hear the explanation on that conclusion

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with the river shove, Im not claiming zupps range is ace/bluff/8. im saying its 8 or bluff. no ace, ok?

Im saying its better for Zupp to bet less with KK- because an ace is in timex range.

As for the difference between an ace and AA...

Im not sure what u mean. The difference from Zupps point of view and how he would bet it on the river? or why AA is defferent from the other pockets? Or why i think i can exclude it form his river range after the shove?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

1. Why would he not push an ace?

2. Why would he not push AA?

3. If you are timex and Zupp bets 1/2 pot on the river, do you fold or call your 77?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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ITS THE RIVER THAT MAKES THIS HAND INTERESTING!


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actually i think that is 100% wrong.
the key to this hand is the turn, the river is totally standard.

i personally fold the turn cuz i think that most good players will have a very low bluffing frequency on a blank turn after the preflop and flop action.

i think making calls like this on the turn is a bad play long term w/o specific reads as in general ppl just dont bluff in this spot that often.

that being said if you do decide villian will bluff the turn often enough to make it a call the river is a very easy call.

also your contention that villian's range is polarized is non-sense as hero's hand is face up and if villian doesnt value bet JJ+ he's not even 1/2 way good/tough.

hero is NEVER c/c 2 streets OOP with Ax and his range is so redic tilted towards smaller pp that not shoving river with AA/JJ is just burning up money.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

i basically agree with all of you who say this hand isnt that interesting etc but i think it is probably fairly insightful and interesting to the target audience of nezzar's article which is obviously not on nearly the level most of you are on.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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As for a grudge match im up for it with any stakes and my word can be trusted.

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when is this going down?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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As for a grudge match im up for it with any stakes and my word can be trusted.

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when is this going down?

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Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

[ QUOTE ]
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ITS THE RIVER THAT MAKES THIS HAND INTERESTING!


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actually i think that is 100% wrong.
the key to this hand is the turn, the river is totally standard.

i personally fold the turn cuz i think that most good players will have a very low bluffing frequency on a blank turn after the preflop and flop action.

i think making calls like this on the turn is a bad play long term w/o specific reads as in general ppl just dont bluff in this spot that often.

that being said if you do decide villian will bluff the turn often enough to make it a call the river is a very easy call.

also your contention that villian's range is polarized is non-sense as hero's hand is face up and if villian doesnt value bet JJ+ he's not even 1/2 way good/tough.

hero is NEVER c/c 2 streets OOP with Ax and his range is so redic tilted towards smaller pp that not shoving river with AA/JJ is just burning up money.

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like more than half of what u say i agree with. Not the last part that Hero would not C/C two streets with an ace that part i dont agree with... and not the first part either.

I agree that folding turn would be best bc of what u said regarding flop and preflop action. Personally i would probably call turn even tho i have a strong feeling that this is spew. I also would c/c two streets with A-J so maybe heros range is rediciously tilted two a small PP but mine certainly isnt...

the thing is that when villain knows im calling with A-J on turn then suddenly the river becomes and easy call with 7-7.

Also one more thing that havent been considered. even if villain doesnt bluff turn often enough to make it a good call he can bluff river enough to make the turn call good. You know what i mean?
Lets say villain doesnt bluff turn especially often with flop and preflop action. lets say he bluffs 10% of the time here. it costs u 4K to call so its a bad call. But on river his bluffing frequency is depending on the board. If he was bluffing on turn villain will bluff 100% with an ace river but else he wont bluff at all, just give up (this is hypothetical, a model if u will). this still makes for a bad call but some of the time villain has bet turn in protection and to get a showdown with a worse hand (kind of a blockingbet but in position). if villain bluffs 15% on turn then its ev+ to call turn if u know how to play the river (i.e asess what rivers villain would continue to bluff on).

On the river you can use your hand reading skills to decide wether u should call or not and thus make up for the EV you lost on turn... im not sure how to explain this...

do i make any sense at all?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. Why would he not push an ace?

2. Why would he not push AA?

3. If you are timex and Zupp bets 1/2 pot on the river, do you fold or call your 77?

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1. bc an ace is in timex range. but he would push if he is bluffing.

2. Zupp is not afraid to have a worse hand but would like to get value from a pocket that might fold else (this is from Zupps point of view, he doesnt know that hero would call more with a pocket). also if timex should have an 8 zupp saves money when timex checkraises allin.

3. yes id fold to half pot bets here (in this hand in this situation).

I now that nr 2 is flawed thinking but im too tired to sort it out. when i think about it nr 1 and nr3 is also flawed thinking. the thing is for my thinking to work u have to know what exactly what level your opponent are on and how he plays... More often than not i think i know this about my opponents but i probably dont....

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

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I also would c/c two streets with A-J so maybe heros range is rediciously tilted two a small PP but mine certainly isnt...


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IMHO playing AJ like this vs tough players is pretty bad.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

Wouldn't timex re-raise any A with a decent kicker before the flop? (If we exclude the possibility that he was going for a back-raise with a hand like AK or something.) His calling range here would be almost exactly 22-77 (and an 8). Given that wouldn't a VB with 99+ be very std or mandatory?

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
3. If you are timex and Zupp bets 1/2 pot on the river, do you fold or call your 77?

3. yes id fold to half pot bets here (in this hand in this situation).

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't this a really good argument for pushing with 99+ and betting half the pot with any bluffs?

I think you are polarizing villains range to much in this hand (and especially in the other one you posted), into bluff or nuts.
If this was really bad and unbalanced players how would never VB anything worse then an A in hand 1 (and 2) and try several barrel bluffs with nothing, your logic makes sens. But I really doubt this...

If we look at the results, a call down turned out to be right, but I think you will get yourself in to alot of trouble against really good players by doing this. Since they would VB the [censored] out of you, knowing you are calling them down this light and they would also probably be more inclined in the future to VB really thin then to bluff in these spots.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. Why would he not push an ace?

2. Why would he not push AA?

3. If you are timex and Zupp bets 1/2 pot on the river, do you fold or call your 77?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. bc an ace is in timex range. but he would push if he is bluffing.

2. Zupp is not afraid to have a worse hand but would like to get value from a pocket that might fold else (this is from Zupps point of view, he doesnt know that hero would call more with a pocket). also if timex should have an 8 zupp saves money when timex checkraises allin.

3. yes id fold to half pot bets here (in this hand in this situation).

I now that nr 2 is flawed thinking but im too tired to sort it out. when i think about it nr 1 and nr3 is also flawed thinking. the thing is for my thinking to work u have to know what exactly what level your opponent are on and how he plays... More often than not i think i know this about my opponents but i probably dont....

[/ QUOTE ]

Nezzar, all of your logic is pretty far off. How does villain know timex will check/call 2 streets with AJ on this board? That cannot be a large chunk of his range unless he's spewy... And even so, just because timex knows an ace in his range does not conclude that a smaller "value" bet is better than pushing...that should be pretty obvious. As for saying you would check/fold to a 1/2 pot bet but check/call the pot bet allin--that is insanely bad against a smart player. If we assume Zupp is smart and observant, he is bluffing 1/2 pot and pushing TT-KK and you lose all the money.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

yeah thats pretty ridic. if nosebleed were that easy, more ppl would be a lot richer. "he valuebets half pot and shoves his bluffs", thats just [censored] ridic.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

Timex almost never has an ace here, redic easy vb for TT+ for villan. If villan is overaggro lagtard then the call is not that hard as you know he is firing his entire range on the river.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

Look i said that for my logic to work u have to know how the opponent plays. so my logic works under this specific condition. i know this is a tough contion and ptopabably i have to high confidence in my ability to do this....

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

[ QUOTE ]

2. Zupp is not afraid to have a worse hand but would like to get value from a pocket that might fold else (this is from Zupps point of view, he doesnt know that hero would call more with a pocket). also if timex should have an 8 zupp saves money when timex checkraises allin.



[/ QUOTE ]

If Zupp is any good at all this is totally wrong. You really think he's shoving bluffs and half-potting 2nd nuts?

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

after a few min of thoughts on the hand, i swore that i dont know what zupp b4 coming out with this arguement ...

given that if zupp and timex is a good/tough player, they played alot with each other, and can think in 3th, 4th level ...

then..

i'll call if zupp is betting 60-75% of the pot and fold a psb or an over bet, however i dont like it cos zupp might be vb-ing jj-kk with that amount too, but its a close call

timex hand is pretty face up as every1 said, and there is a low prob. that his range has aj+.

if zupp is bluffing....
- timex has pp lowering then a 9
- ace was a good card to bluff for zupp if the have nothing
- timex knew zupp knew what he had, and ace was a good card to bluff, and zupp knew what timex knew
- so if zupp have to bluff him off a pair, then zupp need make a bet that seem like a vb around 65-75% potsize, a bet which seem like valuetown-ing, and plus a little more to make it look like bluffing, it would be too obvious bet a psb bluff since both player are well aware what their ranges are..

if zupp vb-ing,
- he knew what timex ranges were, and that the ace was a bad card for him to vb
- if he make any bet, there is no hand that he can really get value for, coz the most dangerous card has fall on the river, if timex doesnt have the ace.
- if zupp make a psb, it will look like a bluff, and timex might call down lightly, and the ace is the prefect card for zupp to bluff, nothing much he can paid off with beside he had Ax anywayz...
- so timex will start thinking why he bet so much, maybe a bluff .... etc

the ace was supposed to be the worst card for both of them(if you duno that he had quad), however it was the prefect card for zupp get value of ...

its kinda like... "it so obvious that a psb is a bluff(situration wise), then it would be stupid to bluff like that if knew both each other's range and etc, so therefore, its can't be a bluff .."

its really hard for me to explain it(for the zupp vb-ing part) after i knew what zupp had coz i didn't put tt to kk range in zupp range when i was explaining, coz he can vb-ing those as well. i hope some1 does understand my thought of process.

it really depends how many level they are going thru, it really hard for us to comment which one is right or wrong coz we dont know their history, and how many levels they are thinking thru. i came this up imagining timex is me, and zupp is my fd. we both know our play so well that those situration came up alot (hav u even tried b3b the river and get call with ace high ? altho it was a small pot, and its not a pair board) ... when poker are going thru so much level of thinking, it might go back to the 1st level where the .5/1 players play the same way, or it would look absolute stupid like total donks.

i dont write so well so i hope you guys can stick with it.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2. Zupp is not afraid to have a worse hand but would like to get value from a pocket that might fold else (this is from Zupps point of view, he doesnt know that hero would call more with a pocket). also if timex should have an 8 zupp saves money when timex checkraises allin.



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If Zupp is any good at all this is totally wrong. You really think he's shoving bluffs and half-potting 2nd nuts?

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if I were zupp I would shove nuts and bluffs and halfpot 99+, I think this is standard against an unknown who is supposed to be tough. If called, the next time i would shove 99+. If called the second time, the third time i will check KK- on ace river.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

The arrogance in this thread shown by some of the posters pretty much sums this forum up.

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

if u dont like how hsnl'ers post, then dont read their posts

Re: Very interesting 100-200 hand. Need all the help i can get!
 

[ QUOTE ]
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2. Zupp is not afraid to have a worse hand but would like to get value from a pocket that might fold else (this is from Zupps point of view, he doesnt know that hero would call more with a pocket). also if timex should have an 8 zupp saves money when timex checkraises allin.



[/ QUOTE ]

If Zupp is any good at all this is totally wrong. You really think he's shoving bluffs and half-potting 2nd nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

if I were zupp I would shove nuts and bluffs and halfpot 99+, I think this is standard against an unknown who is supposed to be tough. If called, the next time i would shove 99+. If called the second time, the third time i will check KK- on ace river.

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seriously thats just terrible.......