Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

I think you should start limp/re-raising with more than KK+. There's a lot of dead money out there when the small pp's don't make sets. So yummy.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

Is it just me, or is never open limp the most over used criticism on NLHE-FR. Open limping just isn't the worst thing in the world and sometimes it's pretty good. Don't fear the flop gentlemen. It's your friend.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

I think that's one of the most misunderstood things about PNL. Commitment threshold == stack off. I certainly misunderstood and misaplied it the after my first exposure. Going back for a second read and I am much better about conditional commitment.

That said, in some games (especially live ones) target spr == get it all in.

I think much of this discussion about what the right sized reraise is misses the larger point of the example. Take the conditions at the table, manipulate the pot to the size you want, plan your hand, execute that plan until something convinces you otherwise. Of course that hand doesn't apply to all situations. But if you open your thinking a bit to examine the planning and all of the preconditions that go with it, it's a pretty powerful example.

If the conditions at your table are different, formulate a different plan that is appropriate, but still honor the decision points you put in place with the plan.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]

I said, "learning to play FRNL well". You don't have to play well to be profitable at live low stakes. You just have to be non-brain damaged. I haven't read your book yet, and I'm not really looking to take shots at you, but, the title is "Professional NLHE". This implies a certain degree of sophistication beyond beating $1/$2 live. Are you saying it's in fact a beginner's book? Then why doesn't the title reflect that?


[/ QUOTE ]

From what I gather, much of the material (the first volume particularly) is geared at introducing concepts applied by professional players to intermediate players. Hand planning, pot structuring, etc. Not so much that if you read this book you will be able to play 50-100NL at the bike.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

Hi Matt,

[ QUOTE ]

the AK kills the offered implied odds problem.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that you aren't likely to stack off with AK when it misses or did you have something else in mind.

And for all you haters that think limp/rr means KK+, open it up baby. There's money to be made off of people, well, just like you.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read your book yet

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll fill you in.

[ QUOTE ]
the title is "Professional NLHE". This implies a certain degree of sophistication

[/ QUOTE ]

This has been a huge debate in the other thread. I think the conclusion was that it should not have been named this AND it is merely a primer for the upcoming volume 2, which is going to be more oriented towards stealing.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying it's in fact a beginner's book?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the authors did concede in the other thread that it is indeed a beginner's book.

[ QUOTE ]
Why have we decided our line for the whole hand, in advance, and in complete disreguard of any information we might obtain later in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll quote from the book on this one.

The very first sentence in the book:

Plan your hand. If we had to summarize this book in three words, that would be it.

Then it says:

Plan Your Hand in a bold box.

The planning is almost all done preflop and on the flop, as we are building big pots preflop and then deciding if we want to stack off on the flop.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
And for all you haters that think limp/rr means KK+, open it up baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a great idea.

Play big pots out of position with weak hands.

You must tear this game up.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are missing the point of it. The book never says, "Hit your target SPR and stack off any flop."

The point is that once you hit your target SPR then you have already predetermined that your play is +EV. Of course, you can still be conditionally committed and decide to back out. There are many variables.


[/ QUOTE ]

K - Then why are we stacking off against MP1?

Do you really think he has top pair or the flush draw anywhere near often enough to make this a good idea?

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that you aren't likely to stack off with AK when it misses or did you have something else in mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

He means exactly what you first stated.

Of course, the setminer is still likely to get a continuation bet out of the deal.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read your book yet, and I'm not really looking to take shots at you, but, the title is "Professional NLHE". This implies a certain degree of sophistication beyond beating $1/$2 live. Are you saying it's in fact a beginner's book? Then why doesn't the title reflect that?

[/ QUOTE ]

CMAR,

If you don't like the title of our book, I can accept that. But do me a favor - read it first, read the SPR stuff, read the example (a live $2-$5 example), read who the intended audience is (beginners striving to be professionals) and then make your vehement comments.


[ QUOTE ]

Your point is that bad loose players will call small re-raises but not big ones. Then why would you think MP1 would ever fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was referring to the player who has already raised, not a player coldcalling a raise and a 3-bet.


[ QUOTE ]

Against bad players, meh, but you don't have to fall victim to fancy play syndrome and put yourself in such vulnerable positions in order to beat them.


[/ QUOTE ]

The play is not fancy. You limp with KK in EP in a live $2-$5 game, and then when the button raises (which indicates a fairly wide range) you reraise to an amount that creates a good stack-to-pot ratio for postflop commitment/maximization, keeps him in the pot with the dominated portion of his range (the portion you stand to make the most money off of when he commits - which he WILL do with hands like top pair), and either gets the pot HU or makes it unprofitable for MP1's range to coldcall.

I'm not really sure what we're debating anymore. If anyone else has any other book-specific questions, there's a review thread in the Books forum.

Thanks,

Sunny

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
The planning is almost all done preflop and on the flop, as we are building big pots preflop and then deciding if we want to stack off on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what happened to the bolded part in this hand?

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Old Seinfeld episode.....

George makes a huge scene at work and quits his job. That night he talks to Jerry and realizes how much he needs his job. He decides to return to work the next day without any explanation. They give him a little flack at first, but he gets to stay.


[/ QUOTE ]

This forum is now, officially, where cultural allusions go to die.

Quick, somebody post another Simpsons quote!

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The planning is almost all done preflop and on the flop, as we are building big pots preflop and then deciding if we want to stack off on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what happened to the bolded part in this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

On page 272 it says

The plan is to commit on almost any flop that does not include an ace.

So they are pretty much stacking off regardless here.

After the flop they then say:

Since there's no ace, you're committed. Before there is any flop action.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

Professional no-limit hold 'em is easy! And fun!

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
or makes it unprofitable for MP1's range to coldcall.


[/ QUOTE ]

Except you didn't make it unprofitable for MP1 to call. And by calling, MP1 gives button even better odds to call.

MP1 needs to call 9bb into a bloated pot against two players who've indicated they may be willing to play a big pot. Sure you're folding out QT but if I'm MP1 I'm calling with 22 every day and twice on Sundays unless I'm worried about button re-poping it again (unlikely given it's a button raise against limpers) or I think hero is just re-stealing and will be a dead fish post flop (which given most FRNL players 3 bet and limp/rr range is incredibly unlikely).

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
And for all you haters that think limp/rr means KK+, open it up baby. There's money to be made off of people, well, just like you.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is to make MP1 and buttons make mistakes. Fundamental Theorem of Poker.

By playing the hand this way, we are actually fooling MP1 and button into playing correctly.

That's why I've been calling it fancy play syndrome.

Against the vast majority of FRNL players, a limp/re-raise or a 3-bet is a very, very narrow range.

So MP1 and button will put us on a very narrow range and they will set mine against us.

Your big gotcha! is that we're going to be that rare player who ALSO limp/re-raises 78s.

Fine. Except in this particular case, we have more information than MP1 and button.

We know we have KK and we know that we will stack off on most flops.

So we know, in advance, that it is actually correct for MP1 and button to set mine against us in this hand.

So why are we contriving a situation where we are manipulating our opponents into playing correctly against us?

Particularly when if we re-raised enough to actually take away their odds to call we would be solving all our problems and actually getting back to forcing them to make mistakes.

Is it really profitable to sacrifice our stack in this hand in order to disguise when we limp/small re-raise with 78s?

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

^^^ What he said.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

Pokerboy, get a decent image and then you can comfortably get it in with overpairs.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerboy, get a decent image and then you can comfortably get it in with overpairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

We should do a thread on images.

The donks are going to stack off whenever they want regardless who their opponent is. That's for sure, so image doesn't matter much in this respect.

The loose/crazy image that almost everyone here has takes advantage of all the weak-tight play and is pretty valuable in that respect.

The tight image allows me to steal from you guys more often than I should be able to.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pokerboy, get a decent image and then you can comfortably get it in with overpairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

We should do a thread on images.

The donks are going to stack off whenever they want regardless who their opponent is. That's for sure, so image doesn't matter much in this respect.

The loose/crazy image that almost everyone here has takes advantage of all the weak-tight play and is pretty valuable in that respect.

The tight image allows me to steal from you guys more often than I should be able to.

[/ QUOTE ]

stealing isn't as valuable as getting regs to regularly stack off with 1 pair.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
After the flop they then say:

Since there's no ace, you're committed. Before there is any flop action.


[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously?

So we're playing the hand exactly the same regardless of whether MP1 is a maniac or calling station or uber-nit?

And we're ignoring flop texture too?

Seriously?

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerboy, get a decent image and then you can comfortably get it in with overpairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have an image at live low limit?

Oh, you mean "Drunk" or "Less drunk".... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
stealing isn't as valuable as getting regs to regularly stack off with 1 pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

You mean like hero does in the OP?

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pokerboy, get a decent image and then you can comfortably get it in with overpairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have an image at live low limit?

Oh, you mean "Drunk" or "Less drunk"....

[/ QUOTE ]

I played live for the first time last week and I got folds every time I wanted them. Several times I reached for chips and got them to fold without announcing bet or betting. Opponents definitely see if you're a nit or not.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And for all you haters that think limp/rr means KK+, open it up baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a great idea.

Play big pots out of position with weak , nitty set miners .

You must tear this game up.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

(Oh, and I do alright. Thanks for asking)

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I played live for the first time last week and I got folds every time I wanted them. Several times I reached for chips and got them to fold without announcing bet or betting. Opponents definitely see if you're a nit or not.


[/ QUOTE ]

So, after telling pokerboy not to be a nit, you admit to being a nit? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And for all you haters that think limp/rr means KK+, open it up baby.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a great idea.

Play big pots out of position with weak , nitty set miners .

You must tear this game up.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

(Oh, and I do alright. Thanks for asking)

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome.

Honestly, if these tools are working in your game, then keep at it!

What stakes do you play?

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

Oh, Bodog .25/.50.

So the book Professional No-Limit Hold 'Em is most applicable in the $50 Bodog games.

Weird.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I played live for the first time last week and I got folds every time I wanted them. Several times I reached for chips and got them to fold without announcing bet or betting. Opponents definitely see if you're a nit or not.


[/ QUOTE ]
So, after telling pokerboy not to be a nit, you admit to being a nit? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I was live. Admittedly I'm drunk. I probably played like 25/7, but had a nitty image b/c I was just limping ATC in the CO and from the btn basically. Every time I fired a few barrels though I got a fold. My point was that if you have the right image you can stack off with an overpair and be correct basically all the time.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]


Except in this particular case, we have more information than MP1 and button.

We know we have KK and we know that we will stack off on most flops.

So we know, in advance, that it is actually correct for MP1 and button to set mine against us in this hand.

So why are we contriving a situation where we are manipulating our opponents into playing correctly against us?

Particularly when if we re-raised enough to actually take away their odds to call we would be solving all our problems and actually getting back to forcing them to make mistakes.

Is it really profitable to sacrifice our stack in this hand in order to disguise when we limp/small re-raise with 78s?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was really talking about limp/re-rasing in general. It's a nice thing to have in your game in the right game. Certainly wrong in others.

In this particular hand, it is entirely table dependant. There are tables where this is exactly the right approach because of the players involved. For example, I played pretty much this hand in a 1-2 live game with QQ. MP had AK and we got it all in on the flop where his AK was unimproved. That's not the guy you want to blow out of a pot and also the guy that you want to leave some room for him to bluff. He's also a bear to play against because he will put you to a lot of decisions. On some tables, especially when the game plays big, committing on the flop with an overpair is often the right thing to do.

On other tables this is exactly the wrong approach.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

Again, thanks for your concern.

I don't doubt that you're a better player than I am and have played way more poker. And yes I've played all the limits this year from .05/.10 to $2-$4 and mostly play $1-$2 now. So, if you dig you will find some remarkably bad decisions and bad thinking.

But, I've grown a lot this year as a player. Are you killing the $10-$20 game? Nothing left to learn? Or do you just enjoy being a jerk? Nothing wrong with that either.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, Bodog .25/.50.

So the book Professional No-Limit Hold 'Em is most applicable in the $50 Bodog games.

Weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pokerboy, its possible to play $6 sngs and be a pro. Pofessional has nothing to do with what limits you play.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
My point was that if you have the right image you can stack off with an overpair and be correct basically all the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

The vast majority of FRNL players do not have anything remotely resembling this kind of image. And even if they do, there are enough nitty set-miner types (especially online) to put the lie to this statement.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
What a great idea.

Play big pots out of position with weak hands.

You must tear this game up.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, Bodog .25/.50.

So the book Professional No-Limit Hold 'Em is most applicable in the $50 Bodog games.

Weird.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pokerboy,

Why are you making this personal, or taking it personally?

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerboy, get a decent image and then you can comfortably get it in with overpairs.


[/ QUOTE ]

You too CDL!


I could understand Sunny or Matt, 'cuz we're ripping on their baby. But if they can keep it civil, why are you guys turning this into a personal fight?

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

I wasn't trying to offend anybody.

I don't play high stakes myself. I play anywhere in between 50NL-200NL.

I was just trying to find out what "kind of game" Stan was playing in. The $50 Bodog game is extremely soft. Softer than most $50 games. I've played it.

I was only trying to make the point that the book title didn't seem to fit the type of game it was designed for.

CDL, how many professional players do you think there are in the $6 SNG games? My guess is not many. Maybe one or two. If I wrote a book and titled it "Professional Sit And Goes" and it was geared towards a game where a) very few professionals actually played because b) the maximum winrate for that game would provide questionable adequate income for today's cost of living standards, that would be odd as well.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
But, I've grown a lot this year as a player. Are you killing the $10-$20 game? Nothing left to learn? Or do you just enjoy being a jerk? Nothing wrong with that either.

[/ QUOTE ]

My apologies.

I seriously was trying to get a feel for the type of players that were in your regular game that makes your line(s) profitable.

The stakes you play indicate this but don't necessarily indicate your skill level and I hope you know I wasn't trying to imply that. I'm a pretty decent player but I play small stakes ($50-$200) as well as you.

So I apologize that I came off like a tool in that post.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

I just think you're being way overly critical pokerboy. Professional does not entail deep level thinking or uncommon knowledge/skill.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
Professional does not entail deep level thinking or uncommon knowledge/skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it does.

The average player (with average knowledge/skill) loses money.

How many players do you think beat this game?

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Professional does not entail deep level thinking or uncommon knowledge/skill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it does.

The average player (with average knowledge/skill) loses money.

How many players do you think beat this game?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok sorry. I misstated that. It is uncommon, but not necessarily any different than your average grinder at any number of limits.

Re: 500NL LIVE: KK UTG+1
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just think you're being way overly critical pokerboy. Professional does not entail deep level thinking or uncommon knowledge/skill.

[/ QUOTE ]


I really don't think the marketing tagline of ANY 2+2 book is "We'll make you mediocre".