Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

I've seen players buying in short and playing 8/3/5. Who still get called when they raise and still get paid off...

I have sat at tables and ONLY bet the river with monster hands... sitting with a 300bb stack.... I've bet quads 4 streets and have people calling down with a pocket pair of 2s.

The players are horrible. Sit at a table with a bunch of people with really high VPIPs and then sit and setmine... you'll make money.

Again... I suspect if you've been given advice before and failed to listen to it, then you're not plugging your own leaks.

I ONLY agreed with your playing style under the right conditions. I still tend towards 'nitty' and it never ceases to amaze me what people will pay me off with.

You're simply wrong saying that it doesn't work.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

your vpip is too high at that stakes and pfr is too small. I didn't read anything more. but You prolly are limping too much pf, and Your range is too wide.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



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theres no way in hell that works

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At NL10 it will work. You'll see people who literally call pre-flop 75% of the time, and if they limp they'll call any pre-flop raise 90% of the time.

I've seen players with stats of 5/1/1 get called nearly everytime they bet. They are very small winners after the few hundred hands in my DB.

The vast majority of player at NL10 don't pay attention to betting patterns.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Any style can work given certain conditions but we are talking about a default style that is played with regularity. I had a 71/12 (and wtsd% was 65 wtst won was less than 30) at a table last night. I only had about 400 hands logged but the player was up 4x his buy in at 25nl. I was happy to find him.I eventually broke him twice with hands I raised that he called my raise. Did his call give me info about his hand, no , but a lagtard like that has a hard time getting away from a pot that he has called a PF raise in. In the short run any style can win, and if he had of quit after 400 hands he would have been up 4 buyins and felt good about his game.Instead his style cost him his 4x buy in upswing and another buyin when he called me down with TPWK against my top 2 pair.

I bet no one can produce a PT sheet of a 33/5 with over 5000 hands that is profitable. It just does not add up.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

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Id say this would work a hell of a lot better than playing 40/3

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

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Id say this would work a hell of a lot better than playing 40/3

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Either way you will lose over the long run but the 40/3 will lose a heLl of a lot quicker.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

[/ QUOTE ]


Id say this would work a hell of a lot better than playing 40/3

[/ QUOTE ]

Either way you will lose over the long run but the 40/3 will lose a heLl of a lot quicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

pf numbers have nothing to do with how we do in the long run. all pf does is set us up to win and if we fold then we can't win

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



[/ QUOTE ]

theres no way in hell that works

[/ QUOTE ]


Id say this would work a hell of a lot better than playing 40/3

[/ QUOTE ]

Either way you will lose over the long run but the 40/3 will lose a heLl of a lot quicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

pf numbers have nothing to do with how we do in the long run. all pf does is set us up to win and if we fold then we can't win

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH?

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Drop VP$IP down to about 20 and less for SB- under the position tab you'll see how much money you lose in the blinds by completing.

Increase PFR and cbet most flops if heads up or have a good feel.

I rarely (5%) open limp if folded to me. If several limp and I have a drawing hand, I'll limp along.

Over 18K hands at NL2, I'm running 20.5/12.6/3.24 w 17.3BB/100hands. I was around 8BB/100 until I tightened up and got my aggressive. Just moved to NL5 and same bad players- just bigger stacks.

But really, everyone has a different sytle and not all are bad. It's your postflop play that matters. You should examine your SD% and W$SD.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

just play ABC poker.
c-bet against opponents it works on.

Lots of call stations calling you down with nothing sometimes.
They just think you're bluffing all the time which is good if you have a hand :-)
But against these players just play your hands straight forward.
They will pay you off, but remember just because they suck doesn't mean they cant win some pots.

The only problem I have on these lower levels like nl5 and nl10 is "fps syndrome", yeah i know I'm not the best [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
But sometimes against these weak opponents I loose patience and try to out play them.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

This thread should be stickied.
Jerry, and I'm not tryin' to be an [censored], why do you post on a forum where pretty much everyone (I'd say 95%+ of posters with over 50 posts) disagree or would disagree with your playing style?

Oh, and playing nothing but pocket pairs & AKs works just fine even at 50NL. Soldatti and PiscoGay come to mind. Their range is a tiny bit wider than that.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

wow jerry is an idiot ldo

@OP, your overthinking 2nl too much. tl;dr but there shouldnt be that amount of analysis for a 2nl hand ever. 2nl is "ZOMG A high arrrin" just play very tight preflop (open more tables if you have to to play less hands) and raise 10x prelop instead of 4x (note: this works at stars 2nl FR with $5 max buyin, im not sure if it works at your games). The reason for this is it magnifies our opponents mistakes at a limit where they will treat your 20c raise the same as 8c (or more accurately, treat it more like a 4x raise at a higher limit. ie the whole table wont call your pfr but you will still get calls from much weaker hands) and it will also isolate the field greatly increasing your chances of winning the hand and teaches you good c-betting before you move up.

cliff notes: secret to beating 2nl (or stars FR with $5 buyin anyway)

play tight
raise 10x instead of 4x preflop
c-bet hu or 3 handed if missed and drop the hammer if hit (tp is usually good gogogog)
jerry does not know what his talking about, its very easy to play profitable at 2nl/10nl but playing as jerry suggests has less +EV then playing tight and raising the hands you play preflop

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win. and there were a couple hands of 50nl and 200nl on there thats how i know i'm not comfortable playing that high...because i tried it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe I've missed this epic thread.

Just because you can't win playing TAG does NOT mean it's a bad strategy. If you played 40/25, you could be aggressive and build big pots when you want them.. but you're playing 40/3.. basically becoming the donk.

Whyyy?

You probably just suck too bad postflop and spew too much money in bigger pots against the people that won't fold. Just because you can't make it work does not mean you should advocate a 40/3 style. I'd like to see your stats after you switched your style.. I guarantee you you're just running hot.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

thac

please dont tap the glass, ty

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
thac

please dont tap the glass, ty

[/ QUOTE ]

np, just making sure OP didn't get the wrong idea.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

oh man i just had a terrifying thought

Jerry could be a level

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh man i just had a terrifying thought

Jerry could be a level

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Can we get a title on him.. uNL's FGators .. plz plz plz.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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I bet no one can produce a PT sheet of a 33/5 with over 5000 hands that is profitable. It just does not add up.

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The stacks at 2NL are DEEP it isn't uncommon to have 300bb+ going in with TPGK. The implieds are wicked. If you are good at hand reading you can play very loose and do well. You guys seem to forget you can get paid down here on every street. You don't NEED to be super aggressive preflop to build a big pot. You just need to value bet, then value bet, then value bet some more. Didn't someone call this 'Fisherman' style. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Problem is the same plays will get you DESTROYED when you move up. But you can learn a lot about hand-reading. I played a little $2NL. Nice way of relaxing. Here's your sheet Nairb. Even looser. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/4f72204cbb.jpg

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Drop VP$IP down to about 20 and less for SB- under the position tab you'll see how much money you lose in the blinds by completing.

Increase PFR and cbet most flops if heads up or have a good feel.

I rarely (5%) open limp if folded to me. If several limp and I have a drawing hand, I'll limp along.

Over 18K hands at NL2, I'm running 20.5/12.6/3.24 w 17.3BB/100hands. I was around 8BB/100 until I tightened up and got my aggressive. Just moved to NL5 and same bad players- just bigger stacks.

But really, everyone has a different sytle and not all are bad. It's your postflop play that matters. You should examine your SD% and W$SD.

[/ QUOTE ]
I read Tien's post called "Some 6max Fundamentals" and got some good advice from KEW. So I tried it tonight and was 20/18/11 over 269 hands. I was only up 1 BB tonight because AA go beat by QJo (villain limped then called my pot sized raise preflop)...Q on flop, Q on river [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]. Then KK lost to quads. Everyone limped I made it 8xBB preflop and got one caller...he flopped a boat and rivered quads[2222]. I probably could have gotten away from the hand on the turn, but oh well. I feel very comfortable playing this style. It keeps me out of marginal situations. For the most part, I had very easy decisions to make on every street tonight.

AC

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Gawd,
I read until Jerrys post. Never listen to anything that guy says. You can multitable these games playing tightly and beat them for 25ptbb/100. I seriously would recommend tightening up your game, and then adding some hands when you feel comfortable beating the game that you are playing. Quit limping in with crappy hands. raise hands that you want to play and value bet the crap out of them. As for the hand posted, you has two pairs on the flop. Shove for VALUE!

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
This thread should be stickied.
Jerry, and I'm not tryin' to be an [censored], why do you post on a forum where pretty much everyone (I'd say 95%+ of posters with over 50 posts) disagree or would disagree with your playing style?

Oh, and playing nothing but pocket pairs & AKs works just fine even at 50NL. Soldatti and PiscoGay come to mind. Their range is a tiny bit wider than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disaggree with what other people think about post flop. i just think playing tight pf is putting yourself at a disadvantage as a lot of people have said in this thread

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This thread should be stickied.
Jerry, and I'm not tryin' to be an [censored], why do you post on a forum where pretty much everyone (I'd say 95%+ of posters with over 50 posts) disagree or would disagree with your playing style?

Oh, and playing nothing but pocket pairs & AKs works just fine even at 50NL. Soldatti and PiscoGay come to mind. Their range is a tiny bit wider than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disaggree with what other people think about post flop. i just think playing tight pf is putting yourself at a disadvantage as a lot of people have said in this thread

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

so many laughs at a single thread!

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ever heard of occam's razor?

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Wow at this thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I've not read every signle post but I guess you don't have to to get the gist of it all. Jerry you need to establish some credibility here. What kind of yield is this style of yours generating? i.e. hands, win-rate,etc

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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[ QUOTE ]
if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ever heard of occam's razor?

[/ QUOTE ]

dude i have pt and i play over 80k hands each month. so now explain to me why i'm not seeing hardly anyone beating the game playing tag, but i'm seeing lots of people beating the game not playing tag?

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Go to your players list in PT, List by "AMMOUNT WON".

Then take a screenshot and show us.

No screenshot = You convincing yourself your right.
Screenshot = Poker is rigged obv

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

ok here is a screen shot. all these hands were 6 max i have no idea why my pt doesn't save them as 6max though. just look at that and you'll see that most of the people who are winning are doing it without raising pf.

http://i23.tinypic.com/2564f91.jpg

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

You've gotta be joking.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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You've gotta be joking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

This shook the way I view poker... Seriously, I'm glad that I'm out of those stakes, where strange play pays off... ;-]

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

I've got another 100K hands at these levels that show the same thing. I don't think the winrate numbers are viable, but the player sample size is large enough to spot the obvious trends. At the end of the day the winners raising 8-12% of their hands are raising the same amount a solid 18/12 TAG is... they just don't hammer speculative hands until post-flop streets when it matters. The other thing to consider is almost most pots are raised and we still get 3-4 callers. Re-raising middle and spec hands is tough especially against call stations and chasers.

One way to think of it is letting the largest number of fish stay in the hand and compound their errors until later streets. It certainly isn't the easiest way to play as you are often in marginal spots. I don't doubt for a second the stronger players here could play over 50% VPIP from later positions and crush this game. I'm no 'baller' and I can do it.

So where are all the graphs showing that Jerry is wrong? How bout a couple 200K hand charts with 20/12 stats and a winrate above 30BB/100. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Personally I think optimal LAG ends up around 30/20 and that takes some serious skill when higher. The edge is so much smaller on later streets against stronger players. But it is extremely profitable to open your game WAY UP down at the nanos if you can play post-flop.

No screenshot = You convincing yourself your right.
Screenshot = Poker is rigged obv

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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1700 hands downswing? Wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even tho it might sound gay: I GIGGLED!

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

lolol jerry leveling?? that screenshot proves nothin!!! lololol so funny you cant even realize this...im done.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok here is a screen shot. all these hands were 6 max i have no idea why my pt doesn't save them as 6max though. just look at that and you'll see that most of the people who are winning are doing it without raising pf.

http://i23.tinypic.com/2564f91.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Errr... this screenshot is biased by yourself LOL.

i said LIST BY AMMOUNT and display the sidebar too infact.

Hiding the sidebar clearly shows your full of BS.

Dude, quit poker.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Jerry if its working for you then work it. I just find at nl25 and nl 50 the numbers are different.

Is it at 10nl there are so many LPP players that people may not try to raise with anything but premium hands because FE does not really exist at this level?

I am really surprised by that PT screenshot but I guess at 10nl you have so many people playing without a solid strategy that maybe it can be marginally +ev to limp more than at hiigher levels.

I still contend it is bad advice to give someone that is struggling or a beginner because you need to be really good at post flop play in order to make your way profitable and at this level I bet not many are skilled enough at post flop play to make this style profitable.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

haha jerry you play 28/3! wtf dont you listen to any1 on here?!

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]


Errr... this screenshot is biased by yourself LOL.

i said LIST BY AMMOUNT and display the sidebar too infact.

Hiding the sidebar clearly shows your full of BS.

Dude, quit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

why does covering up the names change anything???????

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Dude, 7.75 PTBB/100 at 10NL is pretty lol.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, 7.75 PTBB/100 at 10NL is pretty lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

bs....i'd love to see someone do better over that many hands...