Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

What is this huge motive?

In your previous post you said it was to keep fish from going bust and thus maintain more tables. I have seen other people claim it is to increase rake. Neither of those make much sense for a major site.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

Simple as this guys..

Losers ALWAYS think winners cheat or they lose because they are cheated. If all these LOSING poker players would put as much effort into improving their game as they put into this nonsense they might actually win. These players need to go over their own HH and figure out why they lose.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

We need to call all the casinos in Vegas and Atlantic City and ask them to write down the results of every hand they deal for the next few years, or however long it takes to collect, say, 200M hands.

If we are to prove that -online- poker is rigged, you have to compare it to -offline- stats, right?

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

My post wasn’t really about satisfying one side of the fence as to the legitimacy of online poker sites RNGs.
It was about common guidelines that internet sites HAVE to follow if they are going to provide gambling/wagering services. (And the possibility of implementing stricter guidelines for poker.)

My point is simply that if the topic is so “up in the air.” Then wouldn’t it benefit both sides if there where a stricter legal medium?

Not even a legal system because that’s even a little extreme. The only reason I say “legal” is because that’s what worked for Nevada.

Hell even something like “PokerNanny” or the approval of some company or organization that dose nothing but proves the legitimacy of online poker.

“Play at our site because we are up to code on all legal standers.”

Or

“Play at our site because we are NPSW approved.”

And “I like to play at this site because they are up to code on all legal standers, or they are NPSW approved.”

That would give ammo to the ““pros”” in so that they could say something like “You’re a dummy because that sites up to legal code so they can’t be cheating.”
As apposed to “You just don’t like playing online because you’re not good as me.”

I’m sorry; I’m just thinking solution as apposed to complaining…

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

again i just want to say something, because i'm frustrated with how this thread has unfolded although naturally i expected it.

a winning player who is generally regarded as intelligent has ALREADY done a statistical analysis on a large number of hands. his conclusion: a significant result that favorites in all-in confrontations were winning less than expectation.

forget about compiling everyone's HH. i don't care about what kind of debate would go on after results were disclosed from any testing. i just want to see someone reproduce MT2R's test and confirm/deny the results he has already reported. or for that matter, just make a clear statement identifying the flaw in his testing method.

i'm pretty sure i have plenty of data. i just don't know how to do the testing myself. so, if anyone out there has that knowledge, and is willing, please just PM me and tell me where to send the HH.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]

If we are to prove that -online- poker is rigged, you have to compare it to -offline- stats, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Any given question has a distribution which we could calculate and use.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
i never made up facts .
and the logic is something you might not understand but it is perfect logic.

it all comes at the end to RISK ASSESMENT ... how much money will it be worth for someone to break into this system.

this is all i ever claimed .

if you admit it is possible, then we think the same .
the problem is that everybody ask for the proof that it is rigged while they should try and get a proof it is not !

and also for facts , the same way you dont know it is rigged for a fact , you also cant know it is legit for a fact.

Your reasons are much better:

1. they make much money without rigging...
2. they would not do that cause they might lose their buisness etc...

my answers:
1. guess what - they can make more if the rigg it.
2. people like you make them belive they can get away with anything...

so - here comes a story about absolute poker and instead of taking actions you all chat about it....

keep on chatting , it probably saves your weekly visit to the shrink


got that ? or should i explain ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the Absolute thread is what got me interested in this subject. But why stop at Absolute? There has to be some way that all sites can be put to the test.

Users like us have to have some assurances...

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
again i just want to say something, because i'm frustrated with how this thread has unfolded although naturally i expected it.

a winning player who is generally regarded as intelligent has ALREADY done a statistical analysis on a large number of hands. his conclusion: a significant result that favorites in all-in confrontations were winning less than expectation.

forget about compiling everyone's HH. i don't care about what kind of debate would go on after results were disclosed from any testing. i just want to see someone reproduce MT2R's test and confirm/deny the results he has already reported. or for that matter, just make a clear statement identifying the flaw in his testing method.

i'm pretty sure i have plenty of data. i just don't know how to do the testing myself. so, if anyone out there has that knowledge, and is willing, please just PM me and tell me where to send the HH.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, it really wasn't my intention of debating hand histories. In fact, hand history analysis is but one tool to use.

I am sure there are other questions to be asked, however, at this point, I am just seeking more insight. So keep putting up questions or post points that to be used in making a determination if a site is rigged or not.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
We need to call all the casinos in Vegas and Atlantic City and ask them to write down the results of every hand they deal for the next few years, or however long it takes to collect, say, 200M hands.

If we are to prove that -online- poker is rigged, you have to compare it to -offline- stats, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't find it right now because my eyes hurt, but just so you know, you wouldn't have to call "Vegas" you'd just call the NGB and they'd be able to tell you... Every hand dealt for live gaming purposes must be under video surveillance, and accessible for review by a member of the NGC for up to at least 6 months.

All card decks used for live gaming purposes must be marked with implementation date, and retire date, as well as dealers’ initials. All card decks must be kept for up to 6 months in a retrievable onsite location for review by any member of the NGC.

If you wanna find it, be my guest.

NRS - Section 436

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

If you are actually serious about this then.

1. Come up with a series of questions you want answered. Just stuff like is the game rigged is meaningless. You need more specific questions such as

i) are the starting hand distributions fair?
ii) do the results of heads up all in situations confirm to expected outcomes?
iii)etc..

Then once you have a set of questions pay someone with the required statistical skills to answer your specific questions.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are all way way way out of focus here...

there is no way to know if a site is rigged or not from
the hand history. You are all thinking in one direction which is viewing a persons hole cards. this is not the only way to rigg a site.

how about - open the source code ? let you compile the source code yourself ... and have a 3'rd party company check the server side of the software....???
and have the clients decide which comapny will check it ...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm talking about, more geek insight required.

I don't understand what this means, however I am certain it is some computer stuff that is very important and relevant and is way above my head.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are all way way way out of focus here...

there is no way to know if a site is rigged or not from
the hand history. You are all thinking in one direction which is viewing a persons hole cards. this is not the only way to rigg a site.

how about - open the source code ? let you compile the source code yourself ... and have a 3'rd party company check the server side of the software....???
and have the clients decide which comapny will check it ...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm talking about, more geek insight required.

I don't understand what this means, however I am certain it is some computer stuff that is very important and relevant and is way above my head.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually no. The source code is of zero value.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
I started reading along with the post until people started bashing back and forth so I’m not sure how much of what I got was legitimate, and how much of it was just common internet forum junk.

From what I got nineinchal was talking about starting a type of statistical internet database to determine wither or not a said internet poker site was legitimate or manipulating players into forking over cash.

It sounds like a good idea, but I think his scrutiny was a little diminutive. I’m not trying to under mind nineinchal in anyway; I just think that putting tougher an online database to give players that know about the database an edge over players that wouldn’t know where to look for the database is a little unjust.

Wither or not online gambling is legit or not is a topic we could bicker about in forums for life times to come, or we could just all around say [censored] it and really do something about it… That’s just what I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly stitch, I just want to divide the legitimate from the crooks; whatever that may entail.

I believe the body of knowledge will come from various sciences such as math, statistics, economics, computer science, forensics, accoutning, auditing, logistics, to name but a few. Sorry if I left anybody out, feel free to chime in.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are actually serious about this then.

1. Come up with a series of questions you want answered. Just stuff like is the game rigged is meaningless. You need more specific questions such as

i) are the starting hand distributions fair?
ii) do the results of heads up all in situations confirm to expected outcomes?
iii)etc..

Then once you have a set of questions pay someone with the required statistical skills to answer your specific questions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, more specific questions. Good start, thanks.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

Brooklyn is screwing your data.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
Brooklyn is screwing your data.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but I went to Harvard to counteract the Brooklyn effect.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

how about - open the source code ? let you compile the source code yourself ... and have a 3'rd party company check the server side of the software....???
and have the clients decide which company will check it ...

The source code for the program wouldn’t really do you much good, you already know what you need to know about the program on your computer, which is that it uses port 465 which is the same port most servers use for SSLs.

The more important question is what there servers use for a RNG. Such as Full Tilt using what they call a TRNG, as apposed to other sites using a PRNG.

Other important information would be “When dose the server relay my hole cards to my competitors system?”

A fear would be if the server was programmed to have the whole game played out, no matter what the situation, such as “Player 1 will get Ad 3s, Player 2 will get 7c 8d, player 3 will get Kd 7s, so on.” Then something like “Flop will be XXX, turn will be X, river will be X, return results, compile results, declare winner.”

I don’t think that would be the case for any of the sites you might play on. I could almost tell you for a fact that every poker game you play is SSS (Server side scripted) meaning that information is only sent to each players computer as it becomes relevant. Its kinda simple to understand if you have ever programmed anything in ASP, or PHP.

But having an outside party/company examine the programming and giving it an approval would be ideal.

So would other factors such as “How dose this site explore the acclamations of cheating, coddling, botting, and so forth.” Then if after examining like lets say 20 different investigations a month, give them approval if they meet the standards.

Another thing to keep in mind; Once google inc employs somebody to work on there search engine spider bots, or web ranking formula, that person signs a contract stating that they will not work on any other competitors spider bots programming, or website ranking formula.

Dose my poker site have the guy that programmed there RNG sign a contract saying that they wont play on there website, or is the guy that work on there RNG everyday sitting across the high stacks NL cyber table from me?

I don’t know, maybe I’m just tired and my minds getting away from me… but for some reason I’m really getting into this.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
The big hurdle, though, would be that people won't want to give up their HHs. The only thing I could see working would be to decide on some key stats, and have players submit just those stats.

[/ QUOTE ]
You would also need a way to trust whoever datamined the hands. If my agenda was to show that site ABC was rigged, I would datamine that site for a couple million hands, then remove all the times AA held up (or whatever) and purposely bias the sample.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
You also have the problem that there is nothing to compare it to. The only thing to compare it to is statistically info. I would imagine if you took a million hands from a B&M it would be off INSAINLY LARGE from what it should do to human error.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to compare it to anything. We already know the expectation of whatever we want to know. Also, I imagine that the only differences between online and live poker is that in live poker the shuffle is less likely to be perfect so there is going to be a very small correlation between the current hand and the prior hand.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]

The more important question is what there servers use for a RNG. Such as Full Tilt using what they call a TRNG, as apposed to other sites using a PRNG.

[/ QUOTE ]

No major site uses a PRNG. They have all switched to TRNG and you can find details about that on their sites.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that there isn't even agreement on something as basic as how many hands should be required for such a project

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends how you measure the randomness. Once you have the criterea, you can calculate the sample size needed for various degrees of confidence. If someone wants to run a project like this, they would have to first come up with criterea.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe Absolute has been compromised in some way- whether from the inside or out.
What leads me to believe that is actual data and a strange convergence of happenings.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right, and this kind of thing would be impossible for us to catch using datamined hands except for people we have large sample sizes on. Presumably we'd be looking for small biases in the % of time a player wins at showdown and ptbb and so on. You need huge samples for both of these.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe Absolute has been compromised in some way- whether from the inside or out.
What leads me to believe that is actual data and a strange convergence of happenings.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right, and this kind of thing would be impossible for us to catch using datamined hands except for people we have large sample sizes on. Presumably we'd be looking for small biases in the % of time a player wins at showdown and ptbb and so on. You need huge samples for both of these.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the Absolute situation since the assumption was that someone could see the other player's hole cards you'd be doing an analysis similar to what they do when they are trying to prove that a corporation back dated option grants. It is a little more labour intensive but not very hard to do.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
If someone wants to run a project like this, they would have to first come up with criteria.

[/ QUOTE ]

Project and criteria are pretty much key in this situation. Honestly it sounds like something an origination should handle.

Standard guidelines for which an online poker site should follow in order to be approved?

It sounds like alot of work on both ends (the sites, and who ever keeps them in check)

I guess the alternative is just as acceptable… hand over your cash and HOPE they do the right thing.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
With the Absolute situation since the assumption was that someone could see the other player's hole cards you'd be doing an analysis similar to what they do when they are trying to prove that a corporation back dated option grants. It is a little more labour intensive but not very hard to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you do this? How would you apply it to online poker hand histories?

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere in more depth, but

The first thing that comes to mind is to define "rigged".

What is "balancing", how would it be used and why would it be used.

Are we talking about a site identifying individual fish and then helping them in their future sessions by substituting the RNG with a program that analyzes their hand and then gives them a better outcome?

Or vice/verse. Identifying pros and doing the opposite.

I can see where a site might have motive, but it seems that the whole rigging process would be rather complex.

First, you'd have to have software to identify fish and/or pros.

Then, you'd have to have the "balancing" software.

So you have software developers.

Some group of people have to manage the process.

You'd have to have someone watching those people.

You'd have to have someone watching the watchers.

A site would have to weigh the consequences of the secret being exposed against some calculated benefit.

Which goes to motive. A site makes money by raking regulars. Unless a site is just assuming that keeping fish happier somehow profits the site, some individual or group of persons must have done a financial analysis to show that. That's even more people that would know the secret.

I guess I would like to see some proof in terms of numbers that a site would even have a motive for this type of rigging.

I worry much more about a site being apathetic to cheating and collusion than I worry about the site actively participating in rigging.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the Absolute situation since the assumption was that someone could see the other player's hole cards you'd be doing an analysis similar to what they do when they are trying to prove that a corporation back dated option grants. It is a little more labour intensive but not very hard to do.

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you do this? How would you apply it to online poker hand histories?

[/ QUOTE ]

With stock options you look at the stock price and the date. Basically looking for behaviour that is too unlikely to be coincidence. So if someone was issued options on the lowest stock price day repetitively then odds are they actually were issued those options much later and simply pick that date to put them underwater.

A player who can see other's hole cards plays differently. You would need to think about what those differences are. For example off the top of my head his ability to call down bluffs and fold strong but losing hands would increase.

So you take the hand histories and break them down into similar categories with the difference being the relative strength of the suspects hand. Then you compare them. If a player calls with A high when the opponent is bluffing but folds with A high when he is beat that is evidence. If he folds strong hands that in theory he should call when beat by a stronger hand but calls them in similar situations when he is winning then that is evidence. If you get enough of these situations it becomes conclusive. It is just very labour intensive since you need to make a number of categories and then parse all the hands into categories and compare them.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere in more depth, but

The first thing that comes to mind is to define "rigged".

What is "balancing", how would it be used and why would it be used.

Are we talking about a site identifying individual fish and then helping them in their future sessions by substituting the RNG with a program that analyzes their hand and then gives them a better outcome?

Or vice/verse. Identifying pros and doing the opposite.

I can see where a site might have motive, but it seems that the whole rigging process would be rather complex.

First, you'd have to have software to identify fish and/or pros.

Then, you'd have to have the "balancing" software.

So you have software developers.

Some group of people have to manage the process.

You'd have to have someone watching those people.

You'd have to have someone watching the watchers.

A site would have to weigh the consequences of the secret being exposed against some calculated benefit.

Which goes to motive. A site makes money by raking regulars. Unless a site is just assuming that keeping fish happier somehow profits the site, some individual or group of persons must have done a financial analysis to show that. That's even more people that would know the secret.

I guess I would like to see some proof in terms of numbers that a site would even have a motive for this type of rigging.

I worry much more about a site being apathetic to cheating and collusion than I worry about the site actively participating in rigging.

[/ QUOTE ]

all of that makes a hell of a lot of sense. but suppose a statistical analysis was done and the result clearly indicated that the deal was in fact unfair. somehow, you would have to reconcile that with the assumption that it wouldn't make sense for sites to particpate in anything unfair.

well, here's the thing: that analysis HAS BEEN DONE. the result was conclusive.

that being the case, i would like to see people put the debate about whether sites would have any incentive to do this on hold, and instead take a close look at the analysis that has already been done indicating that something unfair is happening.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere in more depth, but

The first thing that comes to mind is to define "rigged".

What is "balancing", how would it be used and why would it be used.

Are we talking about a site identifying individual fish and then helping them in their future sessions by substituting the RNG with a program that analyzes their hand and then gives them a better outcome?

Or vice/verse. Identifying pros and doing the opposite.

I can see where a site might have motive, but it seems that the whole rigging process would be rather complex.

First, you'd have to have software to identify fish and/or pros.

Then, you'd have to have the "balancing" software.

So you have software developers.

Some group of people have to manage the process.

You'd have to have someone watching those people.

You'd have to have someone watching the watchers.

A site would have to weigh the consequences of the secret being exposed against some calculated benefit.

Which goes to motive. A site makes money by raking regulars. Unless a site is just assuming that keeping fish happier somehow profits the site, some individual or group of persons must have done a financial analysis to show that. That's even more people that would know the secret.

I guess I would like to see some proof in terms of numbers that a site would even have a motive for this type of rigging.

I worry much more about a site being apathetic to cheating and collusion than I worry about the site actively participating in rigging.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Balancing" would come under my definition of rigged. My working definition of rigged is anything that would cause a poker site would alter to deviate from a live poker game as provided in a casino to create an advantage or disadvantage to one player over another.

Perhaps some of you would like to formulate the the working definition of rigged. Then we can vote on our definition of "rigged" by taking a pole...

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]

well, here's the thing: that analysis HAS BEEN DONE. the result was conclusive.


[/ QUOTE ]

No it hasn't. One person did some work on it. A few of us already suspect possible errors and even he admits to some issues with his own work.

He has also been vary vague about the details. When I asked him how many hands he said several hundred thousand which I found very odd. If I done something like this I'd have a specific number or at least be much more specific then limiting it to the range of 200k-999k. He also said it was way off from what would be expected but didn't specifically use any quantitative measures other then "a lot" and "so far off".

Third and probably most damning is that all the sites were bias by the same amount. That is very odd. Even if sites were rigged they would not be rigged exactly the same way. This strongly suggests the issues is with the analysis and not the sites.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

i understand all that. i think he'll offer more specific details if someone asks who isn't wasting his time. based on the information he's provided so far, even if it raises some questions, i just feel that it merits someone looking at it in more detail.

edit: didn't mean to suggest you were wasting his time with your questions in the other thread, just that i think he was providing general information in the forum, but would likely provide specifics to a qualified individual who contacted him privately.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]

well, here's the thing: that analysis HAS BEEN DONE. the result was conclusive.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are talking about here. Are you saying an analysis has been done to conclusively prove that an online site would profit by rigging their software to keep fish happy?

An analysis would have to show that the rake gained from returning fish would more than offset the rake lost from disgruntled pros. I don't know how an analyst would model that, but if that has been done, I suppose that would suggest motive.

I am new to this debate, so I have just read theories of other types of rigging, like having rigged house players sitting in games. That type of rigging would require the same type of software development and oversight, though. Again, there would have to be cost/benefit analysis.

Even if it is proved that there is a benefit to rigging, the cost of exposure is so great that the benefits would have to be pretty large.

The problem with the whole project of gathering and analyzing the data is ensuring the integrity of the process. How do you ensure that the HH's that are provided by volunteers haven't been altered by the providers. The only way would be to have the sites themselves independently provide those same HH's to the project manager so he could verify them. I just can't see that happening.

Unless the providers of the data are beyond reproach, the conclusions reached by the analysis couldn't be trusted.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

no, the analysis i was referring to was the one done by a 2p2er concluding that favorite hands are winning less than their expectation in all-in confrontations.

if the results of his tests are accurate, then it seems unnecessary to even ask the question of whether it would be sensible or profitable for a site to purposely cause such a thing to happen.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

From what I understood of that, there is some question about the process, since it showed the same for all sites.

In any event, it would be a worthy project. Like I said, the problem is with the process. To ensure the integrity of the process, it has to be audited and for that, you need the co-operation of the sites. If someone could get the co-operation of the sites, then I'm sure there would be people willing to volunteer their time for data collection and analyses. However, even if a site wanted to co-operate, there may be legal and/or ethical reasons why they couldn't, so we would all be reduced to trusting the data providers.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
From what I understood of that, there is some question about the process, since it showed the same for all sites.

In any event, it would be a worthy project. Like I said, the problem is with the process. To ensure the integrity of the process, it has to be audited and for that, you need the co-operation of the sites. If someone could get the co-operation of the sites, then I'm sure there would be people willing to volunteer their time for data collection and analyses. However, even if a site wanted to co-operate, there may be legal and/or ethical reasons why they couldn't, so we would all be reduced to trusting the data providers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, I think it would be a worthwhile project to the 2+2 universe.

Now how the hell do we do something like this so that we know that we have a fair game when we play on line?

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

i don't know. from what i can gather, there's no reason why a proper analysis can't be done on a set of data from one or more players saved HH. i can't see why we would need cooperation from the sites in order to do a simple analysis on HH. if a statistically inclined individual verifies the testing procedure MT2R used, repeats the procedure on another set of data, and the results are the same, then that would be that. it may not be definitively conclusive. some may question the integrity of that process. but it's something that i would like to see done nonetheless, just as a way of resolving the matter of whether MT2R's results are accurate.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

Some tests can be done very easily.

For instance: Count all cases where a player went all-in. Of course discriminate between different stakes, number of opponents, etc. Then count what percentage of those times the all-in player won.
Do the same procedure for another site. Compare the results.
If there is like 5% difference for over 1000 cases, then there is something to investigate.

You really don't need millions of hands for that, your own database is probably already enough.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
Some tests can be done very easily.

For instance: Count all cases where a player went all-in. Of course discriminate between different stakes, number of opponents, etc. Then count what percentage of those times the all-in player won.
Do the same procedure for another site. Compare the results.
If there is like 5% difference for over 1000 cases, then there is something to investigate.

You really don't need millions of hands for that, your own database is probably already enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? This test couldn't be any more flawed.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

I am extremely interested in putting some form of dedicated organization that examines this issue in full depth.

So far the agenda would be a compellation of a lot of the questions brought up by this forum.

I have registered the following domain for the use of this project. www.BetSure.org (the name just seemed fitting)

If you would like information regarding the deployment of this project please just PM nineinchal, myself, or email BetSureOrg@gmail.com for more information.

So far there are a lot of great ideas that I think will really please a lot players in almost every aspect of online poker (from fish to pro rounder)

The project is going to be non-profit and beneficial to all members.

Re: Organizing a project to determine which sites are legit or rigged
 

[ QUOTE ]
What? This test couldn't be any more flawed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, tell us what could be improved in it then! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] That is the whole purpose of this thread, to get some discussion going about what tests could be done.