Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

If people were wondering, here are the instructions given to the voters.

"Dear Voter:

There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.

The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.

You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from one to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot.

Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, and that includes pitchers and designated hitters.

Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration."

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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I don't know how to convert these numbers to a run value, but here are some updated fielding numbers from HBT:

RZR = Revised Zone Rating is the proportion of balls hit into a fielder's zone that he successfully converted into an out. Doesn't include bonuses for DBs or plays made outside of the zone.
OOZ = Out Of Zone, or the total number of outs made by a fielder on balls hit outside of his zone.

Listings are name, RZR (RZR rank at their position in NL) OOZ (OOZ rank at their position in NL)

Ramirez: .774 (last) 44 (t-9th)
Wright: .697 (5th) 77 (1st)
Jones: .642 (7th) 55 (4th)
Pujols: .846 (1st) 49 (1st)
Utley: .876 (1st) 47 (4th)
Holliday: .900 (2nd) 46 (t-2nd)

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given that these statistics are relatively accurate, defensively Holliday is one of the best NL outfielders, and clearly he's in the top 3-5 of the best hitters this year in the NL as well. how in the world is this guy not getting any love?

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

Coors field is obviously part of it (although somehow the same doesn't hold true for Phillies players who play in an even more hitters friendly park), but Matt has had a sensational year, especially as of late

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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Coors field is obviously part of it (although somehow the same doesn't hold true for Phillies players who play in an even more hitters friendly park), but Matt has had a sensational year, especially as of late

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What are the park factors? Does anyone have them?


Edit: Free on ESPN: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

It appears that the Phillies home park is not leading to absurd amounts of runs. If I recall, they moved the right-center field fence back a few years ago.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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Coors field is obviously part of it (although somehow the same doesn't hold true for Phillies players who play in an even more hitters friendly park), but Matt has had a sensational year, especially as of late

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What are the park factors? Does anyone have them?

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http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/...mp;season=2007, according to ESPN.

FWIW, Coors ranks 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th in Runs, HR, H, 2B and 3B, respectively. Doesn't seem like any other park is consistently as high. Shame.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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If your argument is that Chipper has better "numbers" than Wright this year than that is a very weak argument in itself.

Wright has 100 more PA's this year. That is incredibly valuable , not to mention Wright > Chipper defensively.

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Meaning that if they had the same amount of AB's CJ would be miles ahead

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So why not give the NL MVP to Josh Phelps?

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

Josh Phelps for MVP.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

"Lameness of nickname" ought to be an enforced category for MVP voting. "Chipper"? GTFO

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

Doesn't matter how lame his nickname is. He named his kid Shea. That's [censored] awesome.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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Doesn't matter how lame his nickname is. He named his kid Shea. That's [censored] awesome.

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Is Shea Hillenbrand awesome?

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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Doesn't matter how lame his nickname is. He named his kid Shea. That's [censored] awesome.

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Is Shea Hillenbrand awesome?

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I bet his dad was.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

Beat: clicked on a baseball thread on accident. Now it's going to be blue until it falls off the page, so everyone needs to stop posting in this thread - maybe start a new one or something. Thanks.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

All,

No posts in the 90 minutes since I made the request. Thanks for your cooperation.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how to convert these numbers to a run value, but here are some updated fielding numbers from HBT:

RZR = Revised Zone Rating is the proportion of balls hit into a fielder's zone that he successfully converted into an out. Doesn't include bonuses for DBs or plays made outside of the zone.
OOZ = Out Of Zone, or the total number of outs made by a fielder on balls hit outside of his zone.

Listings are name, RZR (RZR rank at their position in NL) OOZ (OOZ rank at their position in NL)

Ramirez: .774 (last) 44 (t-9th)
Wright: .697 (5th) 77 (1st)
Jones: .642 (7th) 55 (4th)
Pujols: .846 (1st) 49 (1st)
Utley: .876 (1st) 47 (4th)
Holliday: .900 (2nd) 46 (t-2nd)

[/ QUOTE ]

given that these statistics are relatively accurate, defensively Holliday is one of the best NL outfielders, and clearly he's in the top 3-5 of the best hitters this year in the NL as well. how in the world is this guy not getting any love?

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Because Wright is a good hitting, good fielding 3b, which is harder to find than a good hitting, good fielding corner outfielder. Also, his 10 points of obp + 31 steals at a ridiculous clip more than make up for Holliday's lead in SLG. Also, Wright plays in an extreme pitcher's park, where Holliday plays in an extreme hitter's park. Holliday deserves consideration to be sure, but Wright has simply had a better season(for a better team, if that matters to you).

James

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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Doesn't matter how lame his nickname is. He named his kid Shea. That's [censored] awesome.

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Is Shea Hillenbrand awesome?

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You have to be a Braves/Mets fan to get it. Chipper owns the Mets, and he owns Shea stadium. He has 19 HR there.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

Holliday 2 more homers so far today. Loving my preseason props on him vs. Sizemore and him vs. Crawford. Ship it!

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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If the Phillies sneak in it's Utley without any question. Otherwise, Wright.

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Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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You have to be a Braves/Mets fan to get it. Chipper owns the Mets, and he owns Shea stadium. He has 19 HR there.

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ah, I see

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Holliday 2 more homers so far today. Loving my preseason props on him vs. Sizemore and him vs. Crawford. Ship it!

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zomg, go Holliday

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

Holliday:

Leading the NL in batting average (.340), RBI (128), extra-base hits (88), total bases (367), hits (204) and doubles (48).

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

.376/.434/.722 home
.303/.370/.497 away

Coors Field for MVP.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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.376/.434/.722 home
.303/.370/.497 away

Coors Field for MVP.

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Maybe we should look at nothing but away stats. Does anyone know who has the best stats in purely that respect?

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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Maybe we should look at nothing but away stats.

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Park adjusted stats are much better than just looking at away stats.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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Park adjusted stats are much better than just looking at away stats.

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I didn't even know those existed. Is there one resource online where they are easily found?

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

You've never heard of OPS+?

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

Baseball-Reference.com has Matt Holliday with a 148 OPS+. OPS+ is a bit complicated, but just know that 100 is average and 148 is about 24% better than average.

Chipper has a 167 OPS+ which means he's about 33% above average.

A-Rod is at 181, which is just a shade below Barry Bonds' career mark of 182 (just to give you an example of what the numbers mean).

JD Drew is at 99.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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You've never heard of OPS+?

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Nope. I'm old and oblivious, I guess.

Let me ask this: does anyone have a sense of whether those who actually cast MVP votes even pay attention to the stats, aside from the traditional ones that appear in the newspapers?

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

MVP voters look at RBI and team Win Loss record. And most importantly, hype.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

HRs are important too!

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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A-Rod is at 181, which is just a shade below Barry Bonds' career mark of 182.

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That is why NY needs to get RID OF THAT BUM GAYROD!!! Cashman is paying him almost 80% of what he's paying Derek Goder and he's not even the best player ever! Scott Brosius was a True Yankee.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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MVP voters look at RBI and team Win Loss record. And most importantly, hype.

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Who's Now?

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

forget Chipper, it is SO Matt Holliday

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

Holliday is having a great great season, but playing in Coors and a weak defensive position are both huge, valid detriments to his case.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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Holliday is having a great great season, but playing in Coors and a weak defensive position are both huge, valid detriments to his case.

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*tear* [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

at least he's makiing a damn good case for it... 11 HR in last 12 games, leading NL in RBI and BA now

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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*tear* [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

at least he's makiing a damn good case for it... 11 HR in last 12 games, leading NL in RBI and BA now

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And we all know homeruns down the stretch are worth 1.35 homeruns during April-August. Holliday = 7.62 on the September Clutch When It Matters Home Run Metertron 3000.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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*tear* [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

at least he's makiing a damn good case for it... 11 HR in last 12 games, leading NL in RBI and BA now

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And we all know homeruns down the stretch are worth 1.35 homeruns during April-August. Holliday = 7.62 on the September Clutch When It Matters Home Run Metertron 3000.

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Look, don't even both looking at the stats from April to August. They don't even count those games in the standings if I recall correctly.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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Chipper Jones has 85% of the plate appearances David Wright has.

They're close.

It'll probably be Wright and it would be a good decision.

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Probably 10% of Chipper's ABs were ones where he could barely swing as well. He's having a sick season all things considered.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

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David Wright.

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Bump for the MVP.

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

David_Wright_lol

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

he just lost his candidacy

Re: Chipper Jones - 2007 NL MVP
 

If you are going to base the decision purely based on hitting statistics, which it seems like you are, Holliday is clearly the MVP.