Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

My god what a disaster for the industry.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

The most likely way this is being done, if it's being done, is some guy or group is getting access to the database at the back, and just refreshing the same bit of sql to read the hole cards for a given hand. It's just a username and password, once he's breached the firewall. Developers pass the stuff around all the time within a company.

There's not really a need for a 'backdoor' in the software as such, just a clean path into the database. an insider could do this easily if Absolute are in any way slapdash about security.


Anyone know if they have independent verification of their security?

Edit: Hell, I've been thinking about how I might do this if I were dishonest. I'd put a little web page with its own password protection on the server so it has protection from some lucky passerby finding it, out of the way, which pipes straight into the database. I'd make it pass sql straight through unchecked, and pipe the results to the same page. I could write such a thing in like 30-60 minutes if I was on the inside. Then, any database access is internal between web server and database server, and the little web app by definition bypasses firewalls etc.

This would leave lots of evidence if you knew where to look, but companies wouldn't really be looking.

Take all this as speculation, obviously.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

I think we need the higher ups to be involved. I dunno, I just don't really want to be somehow a deciding factor on any of this long term as it's implications are so vast.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think we need the higher ups to be involved. I dunno, I just don't really want to be somehow a deciding factor on any of this long term as it's implications are so vast.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are no deciding factors. the info is going to be made public, period. staying quiet about this is simply not an option.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Hi diebitter - I'd like your permission to quote the whole of this excellent post of yours on one of my forums where the topic is pertinent to a current thread.

(I'm not quoting you without your permission).

Buzz

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think we need the higher ups to be involved. I dunno, I just don't really want to be somehow a deciding factor on any of this long term as it's implications are so vast.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are no deciding factors. the info is going to be made public, period. staying quiet about this is simply not an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont be so closed minded. think full long and hard about all of the implications. (i'm not saying it should be hidden i'm just saying it's not black and white

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

also, what's up with the mod over mod stuff...quoting from threads that got moved...i find it inappropriate. This isn't some 6 year old making 15 accounts and spamming, this is real world big deal. Why step on toes so quickly?

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

db,

Based on my experience with trading platforms and e-commerce applications, even if these guys are pretty incompetent, I doubt a backend database like that would actually be connected to the network. However, the mechanics of how they're compromised are pretty irrelevant anyway. The only important question is whether or not someone actually has a means through which to get realtime access to opponent holecard info. And, as you wrote above, if that's true, it's likely that smarter cheaters have been taking advantage of this already.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi diebitter - I'd like your permission to quote the whole of this excellent post of yours on one of my forums where the topic is pertinent to a current thread.

(I'm not quoting you without your permission).

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

You may. You may also note the method I speculate on is not tied to any one account like the 'superuser' account would be.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think we need the higher ups to be involved. I dunno, I just don't really want to be somehow a deciding factor on any of this long term as it's implications are so vast.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are no deciding factors. the info is going to be made public, period. staying quiet about this is simply not an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont be so closed minded. think full long and hard about all of the implications. (i'm not saying it should be hidden i'm just saying it's not black and white

[/ QUOTE ]

believe me, I'm aware of the implications. but again, staying quiet is simply not an option when we are dealing with, literally, a rigged site. even suggesting that is a joke. what's the alternative, hushing up the threads?

as for mod over mod, I'm sorry (really) but we owe everyone an up to date accounting of exactly what people know and what they don't. I got the potripper hand not two minutes after I spread the word to my AIM list, which is just one of many reasons to get this out as fast as possible. we need to know exactly how many people/accounts are affected, preferably before AP issues an "oh, everything is fine now, thx for caring, here's $50" press release.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

diebitter - Thank you. I'll quote the whole thing just as you wrote it, including the edit.

Outstanding post!

Buzz

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Leave out the last bit actually, it's not really significant. A superuser account sitting alongside your normal login would do the same. The only diff is the superuser account could only be done by one person at a time most likely, whilst the path I outline can be done by many, many people at a time.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

El D

You have more experience in this arena than me, so I'm sure you are probably right on the money.

I think my point was there's several potential ways to those hole cards, and direct or indirect access to the database is a possible along with a 'superuser' account.

Hell, the indirect methods could include any mechanism that easily breaches firewalls' default behaviours on different ports, including ftp and telnet. It's just the web one would be the most easy to execute.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

This thing is all over 2+2 now, it's really pointless burying it here.

That genie is not going back in the bottle.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
This thing is all over 2+2 now, it's really pointless burying it here.

That genie is not going back in the bottle.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If people start discussing it in NVG, I don't plan on moving anything (unless Dids thinks otherwise).

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

when DOES a genie ever go back into the bottle? you never hear someone say, don't worry, we can put that genie back in the bottle!

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

The one thing that seems really strange is all the talk about collecting hands, combining databases and accumulating evidence to present to AP.

That seems ridiculous. AP have way more investigative tools than we have, not to mention access to all hole cards. Conducting an inquiry of this kind should be basically trivial for them once they are convinced to do so.

I think the evidence presented so far makes the case pretty clearly that they MUST do so. I would expect AP to have been tipped off by the posts by now, whether we ever get a public statement from them is another matter. While this may or may not be an inside job, I expect it doesn't go very far up the food chain given how poorly this scam was executed unless this is just the tip of the iceberg and this is someone on the periphery to the real scammers or someone who stumbled on to it and the real perpetrators have been more subtle in their use of this hack.

While we may never know the true extent of it, it will be an awful long time before I have any confidence in AP.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
when DOES a genie ever go back into the bottle? you never hear someone say, don't worry, we can put that genie back in the bottle!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, genies are pretty damn wily.

I'd strongly recommend that we all help out with damage control in the forums we mod or frequent. (I'm sure most everybody is doing this anyhow)

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
AP have way more investigative tools than we have

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahahhaa

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
The one thing that seems really strange is all the talk about collecting hands, combining databases and accumulating evidence to present to AP.

That seems ridiculous. AP have way more investigative tools than we have, not to mention access to all hole cards. Conducting an inquiry of this kind should be basically trivial for them once they are convinced to do so.

I think the evidence presented so far makes the case pretty clearly that they MUST do so. I would expect AP to have been tipped off by the posts by now, whether we ever get a public statement from them is another matter. While this may or may not be an inside job, I expect it doesn't go very far up the food chain given how poorly this scam was executed unless this is just the tip of the iceberg and this is someone on the periphery to the real scammers or someone who stumbled on to it and the real perpetrators have been more subtle in their use of this hack.

While we may never know the true extent of it, it will be an awful long time before I have any confidence in AP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because Absolute support is horrible and lazy, it might take this kind of concerted effort before they bother to look into this without sending a stock "our site is secure and in no way rigged" response to everyone who emails them, because they get so many of these emails on a daily basis.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

I've thoguht about this some more. I think that keeping the thread here in the mod forum is going to do more harm than good. If people are complaining to Absolute right now, and are directing them to discussion on 2+2 (like the thread in BBV), all Absolute is going to see is pretty much baseless speculation. The thread that's been moved to teh mod forum is the only one that has actual hands and statistics. I think it should be moved back so the public can see it ASAP.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

I agree, IMO it needs to be moved back.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
db,

For the kids, you should refer to Office Space instead of Superman 3 when referring to that scheme.

[/ QUOTE ]

or, appropriately for this thread, the epic film -- hackers.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Moving this thread in the first place is pretty ridic.

Having these kinds of conversations in private in general is just counterproductive.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Dids and El Diablo are right. (From briefly scanning.)

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

adanthar i think you can unsticky that thread if it is going to be unlocked...it's going to get bumped 10000 times in the next week anyways

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Am I the only person who gets Brian's original reasoning for wanting this discussion to take place in private? I can see the other side very well also, but there is some weight to the argument that by having this discussion in the open, you're only giving this cheater fair warning to cover his ass and get as much money out while he still can.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Ugh I hate how we as a mod group are handling this.

Firstly, I believe the decision to move it to the mod forum was right (no, BK never asked for my opinion). But before I explain why it was, I want to first explain why making that BBV thread was wrong:

1) The BBV thread just looks like senseless accusations, and if/when AP sees anything, that's now the first thing they see, and they see no real evidence, and dismiss us as tin-hat wearers.

2) Those of us who have played lots vs Graycat/etc basically all know eachother, we can/will keep in contact, and sort thru the evidence and create a real, LEGIT case. We really do not need hearsay and accusations clogging up this process of information collecting.

3) Time is of the essence. Who knows if these cheaters read forums or not, but, the fact we're on to them is best kept a secret as much as possible, so hopefully they don't get scared and simply pull out or notice how we're pointing out that they're being retarded about it. If they take note of our allegations (reason to move the evidence), they might even return but cheat more conservatively. Once the money is out of accounts, AP is going to give no [censored] and do nothing but, best case, suspend accounts.

4) All of the circumstantial evidence has yet to be presented in a quantifiable, 100% guilty manner. Just think from the 2p2 business end -- what happens if there was in fact no cheating, and AP gets wind of these threads. Do you think they are just going to be "oh ok 2p2, we understand." Hell no, they're going to come after the owners of this site. Right now, we have a mod posting a stickied thread, flat out saying, THERE IS SUPERPOWER ACCOUNTS ON AP WHO CAN SEE YOUR CARDS. I think it's dangerous to be this flamboyant until we're 1000% dead certain.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only person who gets Brian's original reasoning for wanting this discussion to take place in private? I can see the other side very well also, but there is some weight to the argument that by having this discussion in the open, you're only giving this cheater fair warning to cover his ass and get as much money out while he still can.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was too late to have this discussion in private the minute that it was posted on 2+2. There's just too much coverage here. Tryign to suppress it at this point will just make it worse.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]

Am I the only person who gets Brian's original reasoning for wanting this discussion to take place in private?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, fwiw.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
2) Those of us who have played lots vs Graycat/etc basically all know eachother, we can/will keep in contact, and sort thru the evidence and create a real, LEGIT case. We really do not need hearsay and accusations clogging up this process of information collecting.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought was this, keeping it between the players it's affecting, the histakes LHE community. However, adanthar was immediately notified of a pretty damning case of this taking place outside of that community. A strong argument can be made for both courses of action and whatever happens, there is no room to fault somebody or place blame.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2) Those of us who have played lots vs Graycat/etc basically all know eachother, we can/will keep in contact, and sort thru the evidence and create a real, LEGIT case. We really do not need hearsay and accusations clogging up this process of information collecting.

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought was this, keeping it between the players it's affecting, the histakes LHE community. However, adanthar was immediately notified of a pretty damning case of this taking place outside of that community. A strong argument can be made for both courses of action and whatever happens, there is no room to fault somebody or place blame.

[/ QUOTE ]

the fact is though that those of us directed effected aren't going to just sit on our hands and do nothing... within a few days I figure we would have a SOLID case built, and then the whole world can know about it for all I care. It's sort of like how the FBI sometimes waits years to arrest people until they've built a case strong enough case to put through public scrutiny. I think there's more harm, than good, leaving the BBV thread up in its current form.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
the fact is though that those of us directed effected aren't going to just sit on our hands and do nothing... within a few days I figure we would have a SOLID case built, and then the whole world can know about it for all I care. It's sort of like how the FBI sometimes waits years to arrest people until they've built a case strong enough case to put through public scrutiny.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strongly agree.

[ QUOTE ]
I think there's more harm, than good, leaving the BBV thread up in its current form.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thread is being modded hard and posts are being deleted, but still i'm starting to agree more and more.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

it's too late to change the adanthar thread, if anything changing it will make it even worse (5 threads saying ZOMG WHAT HAPPENED, CONSPIRACY, etc)

At this point you should just all contact support with your concerns (and whatever evidence you have) and they can sort through the hands themselves.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Btw i'd be more than happy to temp-mod BBVregular for a day or two and help clean up the current and incoming flow of crap.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Also, I am not sure adanthar should be directly involved in this since he owns shares in a rival poker site. Ie in making a thread called 'absolute is rigged' and stickying it.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

I have some $ on AP. Any advice? withdraw it all?

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

jesus this is scary stuff...horrible for the industry as you guys say. i hope there's no way stars/full tilt would be involved in something like this.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have some $ on AP. Any advice? withdraw it all?

[/ QUOTE ]

better safe then sorry. It's not like you can't find good games elsewhere for a couple of weeks and then come back if it blows over.

Re: Suspected cheating on AP
 

Has 2p2 been down for the past few hours?