Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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By the way a lot of people though Jordan was gonna suck when he made his first comeback.

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I never heard anyone say this, at all.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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so jordan or kareem shouldnt play because their talent drops off (jordan still a good player and kareem an average center) because other people don't want to see them with diminished skills?

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Where do you get "shouldn't" from? I'd prefer someone finish their career on a positive note, be it leaving with something in the tank and/or by winning a championship, yes. If they want to play until their wheels fall off that's up to them.

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[censored] that- if someone is still good enough to play professionally and thats what they want to do let them.

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Who is stopping them? I'm not.

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By the way a lot of people though Jordan was gonna suck when he made his first comeback.

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Jesus, this is so wrong I don't know where to begin. I guess I shouldn't be surprised you have two *.

NoodleMan, I wish someone else would chime in regarding that second comeback. Clark would be ideal since he's from Chicago and is a Bulls homer but he tends to disagree with me about everything so that might not do me any favors. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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By the way a lot of people though Jordan was gonna suck when he made his first comeback.

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Who, complete morons?

Most people thought it made the Bulls title favorites the instant he came back.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

I think something that should be noted is that when MJ came back that second time he was trying to carry a sub 500 team on his back. Who was his best teammate other than Stackhouse? No one. This team has three top 20 players and Reggie will have to do nothing more than play 10-15 min and shoot open shots from the perimeter.

I personally hated Reggie his entire career even tho I respect how good he was for Indiana. I think when people pump up Reggie they neglect how good some of his teams were. To me a guy that is 6-7 and can only get 2 rpg with 2 apg, plays terrible D while playing 36 min and has no rings just isn’t hall of fame caliber... not even close. But hey i have been wrong before.

If it was up to me I wouldn’t actively pursue Reggie but if he wants to play I will definitely give him a chance and show him my support.

As a side note: Most great athletes become great by having a passion to play the game. If they can still contribute and still want to play, I say more power to them. I can’t imagine a worse feeling than being 60 and thinking back on my career with these "what if" doubts. To me its about being happy and content with life, not preserving my memory in the eyes of some fans. The true fans will remember me no matter how crappy my last couple seasons are.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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I think when people pump up Reggie they neglect how good some of his teams were. To me a guy that is 6-7 and can only get 2 rpg with 2 apg, plays terrible D while playing 36 min and has no rings just isn’t hall of fame caliber... not even close. But hey i have been wrong before.


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This takes courage to say.

Cody

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

not really.. the Reggie debate has been had. He's a fringe HoF at best. He's a good scorer, that's it. He'll get in because he's a class act and well liked, and he's "clutch".

fwiw, I believe in "clutch" in basketball much more so than in other sports. I'd have to go through the end game numbers though. There's always memory bias about the ones that went in.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

My 2 cents on the whole Reggie thing:

WTF?!?!?

Reggie didn't contribute the last two seasons he was at Indiana. He was a bench player. Like a Brent Barry w/o the athleticism.

He coult probably still drain the open jumper with a higher than average percentage though. Huge liability on D.

Whatever, they need a PG.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

The Celtics will be a massive disappointment next year.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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Reggie didn't contribute the last two seasons he was at Indiana. He was a bench player. Like a Brent Barry w/o the athleticism.

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Bench player? He started every game he played.

Like a Brent Barry w/o the athleticism? Reggie Miller averaged more PPG in his last season (14.8) than Brent Barry did in his best (14.4 in 01-02).

He carried the pacers to the playoffs while the team was destroyed by suspensions due to the brawl.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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Reggie didn't contribute his last two seasons he was at Indiana. He was a bench player. Like a Brent Barry w/o the athleticism.

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What? He started every game he played the last two seasons, averaged 30 MPG and in his last season (partially due to a depleted roster) averaged 15 PPG on 11 FGA. Other than that your comment was really close though.

EDIT: goddamn you NoodleMan.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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He's a fringe HoF at best.

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Is this a joke? He leads the NBA in a bunch of 3 point shooting statistics. It's not like he was a flash in the pan, he did it for a long time. Slight him because he was on Pacer teams who's second best player was Rik Smits (I love the Dunkin Dutchman but c'mon) but calling him a "meh" player in any way is pretty silly.

Cody

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

This is a very good move if it happens. Why? Because it's no risk. We will find out by the first month if he can still play or not. He will bearly make any money so that's not an issue.

Reggie still could play when he retired, hopefully he hasn't lost that much since then. He still can shoot, thats for sure. His problem will obviously be defense.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

Tanner,

I'm a huge Miller fan. If by "a bunch of 3 point shooting statistics" you mean attempts and makes, then sure, that has some historical merit to help his case. And unless Ray Allen totally dies on us, he'll hold those records soon, in addition to his attempts/makes in a season record.

He's just not an all time superstar. He only has a few seasons of 20 PER seasons, and one 21 PER season. Those are good numbers, not great. In fact, he compares a lot with guys like Mitch Richmond, Steve Smith, and on the low scale, Wally World. He's a notch up on those guys, but not by much (except maybe Wally.. that might be too mean of me).

His HoF probability by basketball-reference's stat is 0.042. Granted, I think that stat is [censored], but it has a high success rate.

fwiw, I'm fine with him getting in. I think he's an important figure historically, and I'm fine with that being a reason. But if he gets in first ballot while someone like 'Nique had to wait a couple years, that's ridiculous.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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The Celtics will be a massive disappointment next year.

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You're exaggerating, but if they do massively disappoint, it'll be due to injuries above all else. I think it's more likely that everyone finds out exactly how beastly Kevin Garnett is, and exactly how awful his teams were, and how atrocious it is that McHale could failed so miserably with one of the best players of our time (or any time, really).

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

I hope this happens. Then there will finally a team in the East that will be more dissapointing than my Knicks.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

The Knicks haven't been disappointing. Everyone knew they'd suck, because they weren't actually great players, just big contracts. They have a chance to be disappointing this season, though.

Honestly, the more I think about it, I have some concerns about adding Miller beyond the age/can he play stuff. The offense right now is sorta sweet with the Cs. A slasher in Pierce, one of the best deep threats in the game in Ray, and a low post/midrange guy in KG who's about as versatile as you can get at the 4 position. Miller has never functioned in that dynamic of an offense. Through most of his career, he was the #1 option, and the offense revolved around him running off screens constantly to get his ass open. So if he's playing 10-15 MPG, does your offense have to shift to account for that? If you just want a spot up shooter, we can find someone else I think.

Or is Allen already basically going to be something along the same lines (though a toned down version) and Reggie will sub for him mostly?

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

I am sure reggie is for bench scoring and depth.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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The Celtics will be a massive disappointment next year.

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You're exaggerating, but if they do massively disappoint, it'll be due to injuries above all else. I think it's more likely that everyone finds out exactly how beastly Kevin Garnett is, and exactly how awful his teams were, and how atrocious it is that McHale could failed so miserably with one of the best players of our time (or any time, really).

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It's just a gut feeling I have. I don't think this team will do well. I am generally wrong on these types of things, but like most fans it does not stop me from spouting my views like an idiot. It's probably just the homer in me that thinks the Bulls will be better this year.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

fwiw, I picked the Bulls for most wins in the East.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

KidColin im glad you are around here. I agree with everything you have said in this thread.

Im fine with Miller coming to the C's, No risk. Do I think he will get into the hall yes. But to say he is even in the top 20 SG of all time is a strech. IMO.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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I personally hated Reggie his entire career even tho I respect how good he was for Indiana. I think when people pump up Reggie they neglect how good some of his teams were. To me a guy that is 6-7 and can only get 2 rpg with 2 apg, plays terrible D while playing 36 min and has no rings just isn’t hall of fame caliber... not even close. But hey i have been wrong before.

If it was up to me I wouldn’t actively pursue Reggie but if he wants to play I will definitely give him a chance and show him my support.

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you'd be right, except for the fact reggie did something better then everyone else longer then everyone else. (3pt shooting) that seperated him from 'everyone else' and makes him HOFer. also being a 1 team player is a huge plus.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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His HoF probability by basketball-reference's stat is 0.042. Granted, I think that stat is [censored], but it has a high success rate.


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kc, you know alot about basketball, and ive never heard that stat before - where did you find it, what does it mean, what is it based on, etc .?

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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KidColin im glad you are around here. I agree with everything you have said in this thread.

Im fine with Miller coming to the C's, No risk. Do I think he will get into the hall yes. But to say he is even in the top 20 SG of all time is a strech. IMO.

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100% no risk w/ makeup?

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

bobbo,

link

Pros: basketball-reference rules.
Negatives: seems like a really simple model with some missing variables. It also includes height, though he has his reasons to do that.

Also he notes that the stat is meant to indicate who will likely make it to the HoF, not who should.

fwiw, Chris Mullin's score is also pretty low (.095), and he and Reggie are pretty similar, and Reggie is definitely the more prominent name. The only thing Mullin has over him is the Dream Team.

Some notables:
Steve Nash: .117 - Hurt by his lack of AS games. I think the b2b MVPs makes him a near lock. We'll see how he holds up historically, but these past 3 years have been such a huge PR gain for him.

Vince Carter: .925 - This seems too high. Amongst active players eligible for the stat (400 games I think), only Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kobe, and AI are ahead of him. Given the recent additions of Dumars and Mullin to the HoF, I guess Vince is pretty likely. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he doesn't. He hasn't accomplished much, he hasn't done any of the things reporters gush about as far as playoffs are concerned. His name is still a bit tainted due to the Toronto thing, and he just seems to play out his career just outside the class of the elite, dunk contests and All Star games excluded.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

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bobbo,

link

Pros: basketball-reference rules.
Negatives: seems like a really simple model with some missing variables. It also includes height, though he has his reasons to do that.

Also he notes that the stat is meant to indicate who will likely make it to the HoF, not who should.

fwiw, Chris Mullin's score is also pretty low (.095), and he and Reggie are pretty similar, and Reggie is definitely the more prominent name. The only thing Mullin has over him is the Dream Team.

Some notables:
Steve Nash: .117 - Hurt by his lack of AS games. I think the b2b MVPs makes him a near lock. We'll see how he holds up historically, but these past 3 years have been such a huge PR gain for him.

Vince Carter: .925 - This seems too high. Amongst active players eligible for the stat (400 games I think), only Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kobe, and AI are ahead of him. Given the recent additions of Dumars and Mullin to the HoF, I guess Vince is pretty likely. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he doesn't. He hasn't accomplished much, he hasn't done any of the things reporters gush about as far as playoffs are concerned. His name is still a bit tainted due to the Toronto thing, and he just seems to play out his career just outside the class of the elite, dunk contests and All Star games excluded.

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height wtf? I dont get it [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

tuq,

While I certainly would've preferred Jordan stay retired, I was always pretty amazed he was able to play at the level he did despite missing a few years and his advanced age.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

I think this is a shrewd move by the Celtics. It's basically a freeroll. If Miller can give them 10 - 15 quality minutes per night behind Allen, then that's one key role player they've added. And think about end of games when they need a score to tie or win. The Celts will have Allen, Pierce, KG, and Reggie on the floor at the same time. That's absolutely sick. If it doesn't work out, no big deal -- they're not signing Reggie to a big contract.

Also, I simply don't see how you can keep Reggie out of the HOF. He's the greatest shooter of all time. Sure, Ray Allen may pass him in the career 3 point statistics, but he nor anyone else I've ever seen play has the range that Reggie does. It was not uncommon to see Reggie pull up 4 or 5 feet from behind the 3 pt line and sink shots with guys in his face like it was nothing.

When teams gameplanned against the Pacers, their #1 priority was trying to stop Reggie. The only significant low post threat he ever had on his team was Smits, and unfortunately Smits career was ravaged by injuries. Reggie also never played with an elite or even very good pg who was an excellent penatrator. As a primary result of these 2 factors, he had to work harder than any other superstar SG I've ever seen to get open.

And when you talk about being clutch in big games, the only other SG that you can even mention in the same sentence is Jordan. The 3rd quarter in game 5 vs. the Knicks. The game 1 vs. the Knicks where he scored 8 consecutive points to win the game in a matter of seconds. The shot to beat the Bulls in the conference finals over Jordan and Pippen. Etc., etc.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

Spackler,

I think Reggie will get in, and I support that decision. But your argument has a few holes.

Re: the range/hands in face argument. Doesn't really say much. It's awesome from a spectacle stand point. Doesn't necessarily mean it's good, efficient basketball. And I'd venture to guess his career FG% from 27 feet w/ hands in face is on the order of 20%.

Re: the PG situation. He spent most of his prime alongside a Mark Jackson, a very good PG.

Re: Low post threat - he got 5 years of Jermaine O'Neal, 4 of which were JON's peak. However, he was hurt for half of Reggie's final season.

Re: Teams defended against him, had to work the hardest. Reggie had to work harder to get open than any other star SG because Reggie was worse at creating his own shot than any other star SG.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

When Jordan came back to the Wizards, he was still a top level NBA player. There's only one reason why one can make the argument that his career was sullied and that's because in his prime he was the greatest player to have ever played basketball. Anything less = 'sullied'. I, for one, was just happy to see my favorite player still knocking down j's. That team was pathetic (jordan, hughes, stackhouse, no one else) and he still almost carried them to the playoffs twice.

Re: Celtics want Reggie Miller
 

It ain't happening. link