Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would a Christian claim that he can still get into Heaven if he repents for his murder, rape, incest and suicide in his last moments of life? I doubt it (and if that is the case, why try to live a good life at all day-to-day?).

[/ QUOTE ]
I call myself a Christian and I think God forgives everyone so yes I think he would reach heaven.

Why try to live a good life? The same reason atheists try to live a good life.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

Bunny, as you can tell alot of interpretation is needed but every Christian I have ever met agrees on one thing above all else...that without Jesus there is no Christianity. Some may quibble over the nuts & bolts of something but everyone I know believes that the Bible is true & correct...INCLUDING Hell being real. I encourage you to do your own Bible study especially the Hell part, pray about it, & seek the guidance of a clergyman that you respect.

As I said before, your optimism & love-each-other-because-we're-all-going-too-heaven mentality is commendable but please don't let it stand in the way of your spiritual journey.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

I'm grunching a bit here but has anyone mentioned that Paul addressed this like almost 2,000 years ago.

He basically said that it would be better for him to die, but that would end his ministry and so to put others first he wished to continue to live.

Your argument bounces around a lot. It's only your "duty" to kill him if you share his beliefs about heaven at which point you have a higher authority who says don't kill him. And even if you could appeal to selflessness it doesn't work because Paul is not the only non-you person to consider.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm grunching a bit here but has anyone mentioned that Paul addressed this like almost 2,000 years ago.

He basically said that it would be better for him to die, but that would end his ministry and so to put others first he wished to continue to live.

Your argument bounces around a lot. It's only your "duty" to kill him if you share his beliefs about heaven at which point you have a higher authority who says don't kill him. And even if you could appeal to selflessness it doesn't work because Paul is not the only non-you person to consider.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't that make him a marytr for a religion that is in its infancy...at least by infancy today's standards?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
man made rapture is not murder, ldo

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, define murder.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bunny, as you can tell alot of interpretation is needed but every Christian I have ever met agrees on one thing above all else...that without Jesus there is no Christianity. Some may quibble over the nuts & bolts of something but everyone I know believes that the Bible is true & correct...INCLUDING Hell being real. I encourage you to do your own Bible study especially the Hell part, pray about it, & seek the guidance of a clergyman that you respect.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have, in fact, done a fair amount of reading and research and it may surprise you to know just how far apart many of the denominations are (not just on minor issues but on major points of doctrine and views on "what God wants"). Do you think that the fact everyone you have met shares a view implies it must be correct? There are theologians who doubt hell's existence (particularly as a physical lake of fire) and it's not always easy to tell who's right and who's wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
As I said before, your optimism & love-each-other-because-we're-all-going-too-heaven mentality is commendable but please don't let it stand in the way of your spiritual journey.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think you should regard it as commendable if you think I am perverting or obscuring God's message. Please dont feel obligated to be polite to me, I'm very hard to offend. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Ultimately, my theology is very much about a spiritual journey. I think God cares about the choices we make and the path we choose. I am as nervous of some false belief of mine getting in the way as I am about trusting what I consider to be important questions to a human institution with (in my view) a less than noble history.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

I'm continually amazed at how you can think the way you do and still be a Christian. A theist, sure. But I don't get a Christian.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm continually amazed at how you can think the way you do and still be a Christian. A theist, sure. But I don't get a Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]
Christian is pretty broad (and much less literal outside of the US it seems). I'm not sure if I should abandon it altogether (certainly here it may mislead - several times people have said something about christians and then excepted "people like bunny") but the reason I havent is that I think my beliefs are actually much closer to a large number of christians', they just dont often articulate them or puzzle them through. I think it's important to make the point that christians are almost as varied as atheists are.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bunny, as you can tell alot of interpretation is needed but every Christian I have ever met agrees on one thing above all else...that without Jesus there is no Christianity. Some may quibble over the nuts & bolts of something but everyone I know believes that the Bible is true & correct...INCLUDING Hell being real. I encourage you to do your own Bible study especially the Hell part, pray about it, & seek the guidance of a clergyman that you respect.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have, in fact, done a fair amount of reading and research and it may surprise you to know just how far apart many of the denominations are (not just on minor issues but on major points of doctrine and views on "what God wants"). Do you think that the fact everyone you have met shares a view implies it must be correct? There are theologians who doubt hell's existence (particularly as a physical lake of fire) and it's not always easy to tell who's right and who's wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
As I said before, your optimism & love-each-other-because-we're-all-going-too-heaven mentality is commendable but please don't let it stand in the way of your spiritual journey.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think you should regard it as commendable if you think I am perverting or obscuring God's message. Please dont feel obligated to be polite to me, I'm very hard to offend. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Ultimately, my theology is very much about a spiritual journey. I think God cares about the choices we make and the path we choose. I am as nervous of some false belief of mine getting in the way as I am about trusting what I consider to be important questions to a human institution with (in my view) a less than noble history.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok Bunny, you asked for it. Let me break it down for you. You are correct that there are multiple interpretations/versions of the Bible. You are correct that there are multiple denominations of Christianity. I have already said as much several times. The fact of the matter is this...IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOUR, YOU WILL DIE AND GO TO HELL. All Christians should agree wholeheartedly on this one point. If the churches from Australia to America to Argentina aren't preaching the Word of God then they are doing a hugh dis-service to the church body. I don't care what book some theologian wrote or how he feels on a particular subject. He is a mortal man & is interpreting the best he can but if he's telling you there ain't no hell (pardon the double negative!!!), he's either an idiot or he's lying to you. Satan has a cunning way of deceiving the human mind. Why are there so many nonbelievers on this forum who are bold enough to say "Yeah, I used to be a Christian but I woke up" "Whew, I'm glad I'm Jesus free woo hoo". I hope they coated those words in butter so they'll be easier to stomach when they have to eat them. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Your "everybody's going to heaven 'cause God loves us" & "I don't believe in Hell" attitude isn't doing you any good. Take off your blinders & wake up & smell the coffee. Call hell whatever you like....lake of fire, eternal fire, eternal furnace, pit of fire, the Bible describes it multiple ways but it is a real place.

Bunny, you sound wishy-washy. Are you some kinda hippie/flower child or something??? Even the atheists aren't real sure where you stand. I have basically said the same things over & over in multiple posts but you still insist on digging your heels in & won't accept the fact that the Bible tells you there is a hell AND that people will be going there someday. I urge you to make sure you aren't one of them!!!

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok Bunny, you asked for it. Let me break it down for you. You are correct that there are multiple interpretations/versions of the Bible. You are correct that there are multiple denominations of Christianity. I have already said as much several times. The fact of the matter is this...IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOUR, YOU WILL DIE AND GO TO HELL. All Christians should agree wholeheartedly on this one point.

[/ QUOTE ]

whether it's hell or just no afterlife I guess they're both a lot worse than an heavenly afterlife.
But again, it seems to me that faith in jesus is necessary but not sufficient. I mean, it's like a fat person telling you he knows he needs to watch what he eats (faith), but eats mcdonalds 3 times a day (works)

[ QUOTE ]
Luke 6:46-49 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

The Wise and Foolish Builders
46"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. 48He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you truly loved someone, and realized that the life they're living right now is going to allow them to go to Heaven, wouldn't the correct thing to do be to kill them now to ensure Heaven rather than chance any corruption that could occur down the line? +EV of infinity while staying alive could be -infinite EV. Funny, how all these movies and people try to protect their loved ones at all costs from dying! I always knew the right move is always the least likely one!

[/ QUOTE ]

Catholics believe that your reward in heaven is porportional to how well you lived your life on earth. By killing an innoncent you are depriving that person the opportunity of maximizing his/her reward in heaven. If that is the case would not the correct and moral behavior be to try to sustain that persons life as long as possible?

Stu

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok Bunny, you asked for it. Let me break it down for you. You are correct that there are multiple interpretations/versions of the Bible. You are correct that there are multiple denominations of Christianity. I have already said as much several times. The fact of the matter is this...IF YOU DO NOT ACCEPT JESUS AS YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOUR, YOU WILL DIE AND GO TO HELL. All Christians should agree wholeheartedly on this one point. If the churches from Australia to America to Argentina aren't preaching the Word of God then they are doing a hugh dis-service to the church body. I don't care what book some theologian wrote or how he feels on a particular subject. He is a mortal man & is interpreting the best he can but if he's telling you there ain't no hell (pardon the double negative!!!), he's either an idiot or he's lying to you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think I have explained the problem I think we, as believers, have (or at least not explained it very well). I understand that you believe in hell (though not how you also believe in an all-loving, benevolent God). I even understand that most priests do. There are some however, who dont. This is true of most christian doctrines - some very qualified and thoughtful people will say that true christians are pacifists. Others will say this is nonsense. I agree with you that there is a definitive "right" answer. My point is, it is difficult to discern exactly which one that is, given the plethora of options presented as "true" christianity.

[ QUOTE ]
Satan has a cunning way of deceiving the human mind. Why are there so many nonbelievers on this forum who are bold enough to say "Yeah, I used to be a Christian but I woke up" "Whew, I'm glad I'm Jesus free woo hoo". I hope they coated those words in butter so they'll be easier to stomach when they have to eat them. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Your "everybody's going to heaven 'cause God loves us" & "I don't believe in Hell" attitude isn't doing you any good.

[/ QUOTE ]
I havent adopted an attitude with a view to doing myself any good. It's just that I dont have the power to magically make myself believe in hell, how could I do that? I've thought, prayed and talked about it a lot - it doesnt make sense to me and I just dont believe it. What should I do? Pretend to believe? Subordinate my beliefs to some authority (how would I choose which one?)

[ QUOTE ]
Take off your blinders & wake up & smell the coffee. Call hell whatever you like....lake of fire, eternal fire, eternal furnace, pit of fire, the Bible describes it multiple ways but it is a real place.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not how I read it. Some places it refers to a lake of fire, sometimes a pit - it is an interpretation which says those places are the same. The bible is a guide to truth, it's not something you can approach passively - you cant just read the answer like a textbook.

[ QUOTE ]
Bunny, you sound wishy-washy. Are you some kinda hippie/flower child or something???

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm an accountant.

I dont really know how to answer that. I dont have much confidence in my spiritual beliefs being right - I am doing the best I can to make sense of the world as I find it. Is that what you mean by wishy-washy? I'm not certain of very much.

[ QUOTE ]
Even the atheists aren't real sure where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's partly because I've gone from theist to atheist and back to theist I guess. Also because conversation here usually focusses on christian fundamentalists even though people use the term theist. Sometimes that can lead to confusion.

[ QUOTE ]
I have basically said the same things over & over in multiple posts but you still insist on digging your heels in & won't accept the fact that the Bible tells you there is a hell AND that people will be going there someday. I urge you to make sure you aren't one of them!!!

[/ QUOTE ]
No offense, but you saying something lots isnt going to persuade me of anything. I'm interested in why you think something is true. I'm also surprised you dont agree with me that we have a problem in deciding which group claiming christian authority we should accept. It seems a definite weak point in a christian world view.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

Bunny,

Stop trying to "pick sides" of the theology coin. You sound like you are at a crossroads. You want to believe but without solid proof of "who's right" & "who's wrong" you are unwilling to get the fence pole from your backside. I firmly believe you're not alone in the world on this point either. As I've said before Satan uses everything in his power to deceive. I'm telling you to believe what is written in the Holy Bible. Read what Jesus said. I think something is true because that's what God's Word says...not what some priest/preacher/clergyman says...although we may coincidently agree.

Remember, clergy people are human too. They have faults. They misinterpret. They have their owns agendas...whatever that agenda may be...to lead people to Christ (yay!) or to mix politics & religion from the pulpit (boo!). Just don't let their agenda come between you & the Lord.

For the umpteenth time, I believe there's a hell because the Bible says so. Period. Not because some televangelists says so, not because some priest says so, but because the Word says so. I agree that God is a loving God but if you try to cross him/rebell/disobey you get disciplined. Like a loving parent that disciplines an unruly child. Hell is the ultimate discipline for those who refuse to believe.

Bunny, if I were you I'd do some soul searching as to whether you are really saved or not. If you are jumping from theist to atheist back to theist that easily depending on the argument at hand PLUS you don't believe in hell..........you're in dire straights.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm continually amazed at how you can think the way you do and still be a Christian. A theist, sure. But I don't get a Christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know how much Christianity has changed over the years. Mainstream beliefs 200 years ago are considered crazy today. I think his views are more in line with what Christians will believe in the future, if the religon is still around.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

I never said Bunny was or was not a born again Christian. I said do some soul searching to figure out on his/her own...hugh difference. Nobody can do it but Bunny.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe there's a hell because the Bible says so. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

could you provide support for that? I've really only read revelation and from what I understand if you fail judgement you get thrown into fire and die a second (and permanent) time instead of heaven.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious .

[/ QUOTE ]

well they invented limbo and then said no and then said yes, I'm not even sure they read the bible to be honest although they call themselves christians.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe there's a hell because the Bible says so. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

could you provide support for that? I've really only read revelation and from what I understand if you fail judgement you get thrown into fire and die a second (and permanent) time instead of heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. Through out the Bible (mostly NT) there are multiple references to hell. Jesus taught alot about hell, coincidently more than about heaven. There are multiple verses in Matthew, Luke, & Jude that refer to the 'outside' with a weeping & gnashing of teeth. I posted those earlier in this thread I believe. I believe that this is a direct reference to hell even though it's not stated specifically.

Revelation obviously is where hell is really explored. If you've read & understood that, then there's not alot more I can give you. It's all right there in God's word.

You understood correctly. Without Jesus Christ as your personal saviour, your soul will spend eternity in hell.

Why read only Revelation?? It's the last book....

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sure. Through out the Bible (mostly NT) there are multiple references to hell. Jesus taught alot about hell, coincidently more than about heaven. There are multiple verses in Matthew, Luke, & Jude that refer to the 'outside' with a weeping & gnashing of teeth. I posted those earlier in this thread I believe. I believe that this is a direct reference to hell even though it's not stated specifically.

Revelation obviously is where hell is really explored. If you've read & understood that, then there's not alot more I can give you. It's all right there in God's word.

You understood correctly. Without Jesus Christ as your personal saviour, your soul will spend eternity in hell.

Why read only Revelation?? It's the last book....

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant it's the only citation I know off the top of my head about hell/judgement, the one I posted and the webpage I posted.
If you can post a citation I would appreciate it.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want me to believe that in the Bible Jesus says very clearly that babies go to heaven and the Pope just missed it? I am pretty sure that dude has read the Bible, maybe even twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

It makes no sense especially since the Pope obviously WANTS to agree with you. Maybe you are not as good of a Bible scholar as you seem to think?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want me to believe that in the Bible Jesus says very clearly that babies go to heaven and the Pope just missed it? I am pretty sure that dude has read the Bible, maybe even twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

It makes no sense especially since the Pope obviously WANTS to agree with you. Maybe you are not as good of a Bible scholar as you seem to think?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are multiple references from Jesus in the NT. Do I need to look them up for you or do you know how to use Google??

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sure. Through out the Bible (mostly NT) there are multiple references to hell. Jesus taught alot about hell, coincidently more than about heaven. There are multiple verses in Matthew, Luke, & Jude that refer to the 'outside' with a weeping & gnashing of teeth. I posted those earlier in this thread I believe. I believe that this is a direct reference to hell even though it's not stated specifically.

Revelation obviously is where hell is really explored. If you've read & understood that, then there's not alot more I can give you. It's all right there in God's word.

You understood correctly. Without Jesus Christ as your personal saviour, your soul will spend eternity in hell.

Why read only Revelation?? It's the last book....

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant it's the only citation I know off the top of my head about hell/judgement, the one I posted and the webpage I posted.
If you can post a citation I would appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's one:

11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This from Matt 8. There are similar passages in:

Matt 13:41-42
Matt 13: 49-50
Matt 22: 12-13
Matt 24: 50-51
Matt 25: 29-30
Luke 13: 27-28
Jude 1: 6 & 13

Plus the whole Book of Revelation. Chapter 20 specifically.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want me to believe that in the Bible Jesus says very clearly that babies go to heaven and the Pope just missed it? I am pretty sure that dude has read the Bible, maybe even twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

It makes no sense especially since the Pope obviously WANTS to agree with you. Maybe you are not as good of a Bible scholar as you seem to think?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are multiple references from Jesus in the NT. Do I need to look them up for you or do you know how to use Google??

[/ QUOTE ]

I want you to explain how it can be so obvious to you yet a subject of debate for the Catholics for 1000 years. Don't you think that is a bit strange? Please give me some actual Bible quotes if you can find any. Thank you.

Think about it from my point of view. I have no idea what Jesus said about this. So one guy (you) tells me its obvious and babies go to heaven. Then there is the Pope who says that he is not sure (but wants to think the same thing you do) and one of his major jobs is to interpret the Bible. The Pope must be really dumb, or lying for some reason or you have made a mistake. Am i crazy for thinking maybe you made a mistake?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want me to believe that in the Bible Jesus says very clearly that babies go to heaven and the Pope just missed it? I am pretty sure that dude has read the Bible, maybe even twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

It makes no sense especially since the Pope obviously WANTS to agree with you. Maybe you are not as good of a Bible scholar as you seem to think?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are multiple references from Jesus in the NT. Do I need to look them up for you or do you know how to use Google??

[/ QUOTE ]

I want you to explain how it can be so obvious to you yet a subject of debate for the Catholics for 1000 years. Don't you think that is a bit strange? Please give me some actual Bible quotes if you can find any. Thank you.

Think about it from my point of view. I have no idea what Jesus said about this. So one guy (you) tells me its obvious and babies go to heaven. Then there is the Pope who says that he is not sure (but wants to think the same thing you do) and one of his major jobs is to interpret the Bible. The Pope must be really dumb, or lying for some reason or you have made a mistake. Am i crazy for thinking maybe you made a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here:

Matt 18: 2-6
Matt 19: 13-15
Mark 10: 13-16
Luke 18: 15-16

Read it for yourself.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want me to believe that in the Bible Jesus says very clearly that babies go to heaven and the Pope just missed it? I am pretty sure that dude has read the Bible, maybe even twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

It makes no sense especially since the Pope obviously WANTS to agree with you. Maybe you are not as good of a Bible scholar as you seem to think?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are multiple references from Jesus in the NT. Do I need to look them up for you or do you know how to use Google??

[/ QUOTE ]

I want you to explain how it can be so obvious to you yet a subject of debate for the Catholics for 1000 years. Don't you think that is a bit strange? Please give me some actual Bible quotes if you can find any. Thank you.

Think about it from my point of view. I have no idea what Jesus said about this. So one guy (you) tells me its obvious and babies go to heaven. Then there is the Pope who says that he is not sure (but wants to think the same thing you do) and one of his major jobs is to interpret the Bible. The Pope must be really dumb, or lying for some reason or you have made a mistake. Am i crazy for thinking maybe you made a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here:

Matt 18: 2-6
Matt 19: 13-15
Mark 10: 13-16
Luke 18: 15-16

Read it for yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me it looks like Jesus was praising kids because they believe in him so easily.

"Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

The kids he is talking seem to be able to speak and understand. I don't see anything about aborted kids or babies who cannot yet recieve the kingdom of god.

You might be right but I it seems to me that the passages are vague enough so that a resonable person can have a different view. The Bible isn't a math book.

Also he seems to speak very figuratively. He said on one of those sites that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. You can't believe that he really ment that right?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want me to believe that in the Bible Jesus says very clearly that babies go to heaven and the Pope just missed it? I am pretty sure that dude has read the Bible, maybe even twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

It makes no sense especially since the Pope obviously WANTS to agree with you. Maybe you are not as good of a Bible scholar as you seem to think?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are multiple references from Jesus in the NT. Do I need to look them up for you or do you know how to use Google??

[/ QUOTE ]

I want you to explain how it can be so obvious to you yet a subject of debate for the Catholics for 1000 years. Don't you think that is a bit strange? Please give me some actual Bible quotes if you can find any. Thank you.

Think about it from my point of view. I have no idea what Jesus said about this. So one guy (you) tells me its obvious and babies go to heaven. Then there is the Pope who says that he is not sure (but wants to think the same thing you do) and one of his major jobs is to interpret the Bible. The Pope must be really dumb, or lying for some reason or you have made a mistake. Am i crazy for thinking maybe you made a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here:

Matt 18: 2-6
Matt 19: 13-15
Mark 10: 13-16
Luke 18: 15-16

Read it for yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me it looks like Jesus was praising kids because they believe in him so easily.

"Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein."

The kids he is talking seem to be able to speak and understand. I don't see anything about aborted kids or babies who cannot yet recieve the kingdom of god.

You might be right but I it seems to me that the passages are vague enough so that a resonable person can have a different view. The Bible isn't a math book.

Also he seems to speak very figuratively. He said on one of those sites that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. You can't believe that he really ment that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

He meant ALL children until they are at an intellectual age to be able to understand right from wrong. NOTE: I did not put a chronological age to that statement. Neither does the Bible.

And you think those passages are vague??

Concerning your last paragraph, yes I believe that.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm grunching a bit here but has anyone mentioned that Paul addressed this like almost 2,000 years ago.

He basically said that it would be better for him to die, but that would end his ministry and so to put others first he wished to continue to live.

Your argument bounces around a lot. It's only your "duty" to kill him if you share his beliefs about heaven at which point you have a higher authority who says don't kill him. And even if you could appeal to selflessness it doesn't work because Paul is not the only non-you person to consider.

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The beauty of this is that it doesn't MATTER what God says about it. He tells us not to steal, but surely we all know there are times when its ok to steal. There are always exceptions, and the Bible is intended to lay a FRAMEWORK that allows us to make decisions, right? Not to explicitly spell out how to act in every situation.

Also, we are CERTAIN to save this one person for eternity, while those future people are only people we MIGHT be able to help. The sure-bet is the best one, without doubt.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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If you truly loved someone, and realized that the life they're living right now is going to allow them to go to Heaven, wouldn't the correct thing to do be to kill them now to ensure Heaven rather than chance any corruption that could occur down the line? +EV of infinity while staying alive could be -infinite EV. Funny, how all these movies and people try to protect their loved ones at all costs from dying! I always knew the right move is always the least likely one!

[/ QUOTE ]

Catholics believe that your reward in heaven is porportional to how well you lived your life on earth. By killing an innoncent you are depriving that person the opportunity of maximizing his/her reward in heaven. If that is the case would not the correct and moral behavior be to try to sustain that persons life as long as possible?

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? There is a Gold Heaven, a Platinum Heaven, and a Diamond Heaven? Is that in the Bible somewhere?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

Babies, dude.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The answer to the OP is pretty obvious. You cannot go around killing people because you can never be sure what they really believe. They may say they believe in Jesus but they could be lying. By killing them you have denied them a chance to truly believe. The only person you can be sure believes is yourself and I don't know what the majority of Christians now believe about suicide. (ie If the person believes does he get into heaven)

Also I think the aborted babies go to heaven is a very very modern idea. Historically most people have thought they go to hell, atleast Catholics and probably more. Christians decided this was logically unfair so they changed their view. In the future they will most likely change their view on hell all together.

Saying Bunny is not a Christian seems horribly un-christian to me. He says he believes in Jesus, who really cares about anything else? I don't think Jesus would.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, babies/children go to heaven. Jesus said so mulitple times in the New Testament. That's not a 'modern' idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be what you believe but to say it as a fact is very dishonest. The Pope is unsure and only says that their is hope to believe that they get into heaven. Maybe you should email him if it is so obvious [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm very sure. I'll put the Word of God against the Pope any day of the week and twice on Sunday. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

As I have stated before in this thread...I have my own convictions about Catholics that I will not post here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want me to believe that in the Bible Jesus says very clearly that babies go to heaven and the Pope just missed it? I am pretty sure that dude has read the Bible, maybe even twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

It makes no sense especially since the Pope obviously WANTS to agree with you. Maybe you are not as good of a Bible scholar as you seem to think?

[/ QUOTE ]

No idea why you would think the Pope would WANT to agree with this. It makes a lot more sense that the Pope would prefer everyone to be born hopelessly sinful.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you truly loved someone, and realized that the life they're living right now is going to allow them to go to Heaven, wouldn't the correct thing to do be to kill them now to ensure Heaven rather than chance any corruption that could occur down the line? +EV of infinity while staying alive could be -infinite EV. Funny, how all these movies and people try to protect their loved ones at all costs from dying! I always knew the right move is always the least likely one!

[/ QUOTE ]

Catholics believe that your reward in heaven is porportional to how well you lived your life on earth. By killing an innoncent you are depriving that person the opportunity of maximizing his/her reward in heaven. If that is the case would not the correct and moral behavior be to try to sustain that persons life as long as possible?

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? There is a Gold Heaven, a Platinum Heaven, and a Diamond Heaven? Is that in the Bible somewhere?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. They're called heavenly rewards or crowns.

The crowns are identified as the Everlasting Crown (Victory) in 1 Cor 9:25, Crown of the Soul Winner in Phil 4:1 and 1 Thes 2:19, Crown of Righteousness in 2 Tim 4:8, Crown of Life in Jas 1:12 and Rev 2:10, and the Crown of Glory in 1 Peter 5:4.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you truly loved someone, and realized that the life they're living right now is going to allow them to go to Heaven, wouldn't the correct thing to do be to kill them now to ensure Heaven rather than chance any corruption that could occur down the line? +EV of infinity while staying alive could be -infinite EV. Funny, how all these movies and people try to protect their loved ones at all costs from dying! I always knew the right move is always the least likely one!

[/ QUOTE ]

Catholics believe that your reward in heaven is porportional to how well you lived your life on earth. By killing an innoncent you are depriving that person the opportunity of maximizing his/her reward in heaven. If that is the case would not the correct and moral behavior be to try to sustain that persons life as long as possible?

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? There is a Gold Heaven, a Platinum Heaven, and a Diamond Heaven? Is that in the Bible somewhere?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. They're called heavenly rewards or crowns.

The crowns are identified as the Everlasting Crown (Victory) in 1 Cor 9:25, Crown of the Soul Winner in Phil 4:1 and 1 Thes 2:19, Crown of Righteousness in 2 Tim 4:8, Crown of Life in Jas 1:12 and Rev 2:10, and the Crown of Glory in 1 Peter 5:4.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are the differences in benefits? Shorter line at the spa?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

Did you read the passages?

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

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Did you read the passages?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, fine, hold on.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did you read the passages?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh, fine, hold on.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, so the answer is no, there are NOT different heavens, there are NOT different rewards, but there are several different flowery metaphors that different people use to describe eternal salvation.

Re: Your duty to kill those guaranteed to go to Heaven
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously? There is a Gold Heaven, a Platinum Heaven, and a Diamond Heaven? Is that in the Bible somewhere?

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest I don't know. I'm only telling you that I was taught(as a catholic) that the greatness of your reward in heavan depends on how well you live your life on earth. Conversely, the level of punishment in hell is also dependent on how wicked of a life you lead.

If what I was taught is true, the OP and SilentA can no longer make any valid moral conclusions. The situation is very well be akin to passing up a small EV bet today in order to make a larger EV bet tommorrow. You need a whole lot more information to solve that problem and that information is just not available. How does one accurately measure and assign a value to the different levels of eternal reward and eternal punishment? How does one determine the probability that a specific innocent is going to go bad? How does one determine the range of probabilities of a specific innocent going bad and know that range accurately coincides with the different levels of eternal damnation that "innocent" may recieve?

It's pointless for men to debate wether we have a moral obligation to kill and innocent in order to guarantee they will go to heaven. Its for God to decide that. On this point we can let this thread die the death it deserves.

Stu