Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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this is classic southern style service. commanders palace new orleans is the best at this.

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I'm pretty sure this is not restricted to the southern U.S. Not exactly the paragon of classic fine dining culture, restaurants like Commander's Palace notwithstanding.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

el d,

looking at the menu for the ritz i was expecting the prices to be about 2x what they are. this looks quite affordable, i will probably hit that up sometime, you would actually put it above craftsteak? having an ex french laundry sous chef is quite impressive.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

PITTM,

There's no comparison, it is imo at an entirely different level than Craftsteak. Ron Siegel is a truly world class chef.

BTW, you may have noticed there's no menu for the nine-course tasting menu. For that one you just sit back and enjoy, not knowing what he's going to send out. However, the theme is similar to the other ones in that you'll get a nice balanced mix of Japanese sushi themed dishes, some fish, some red meat, some other meat, etc. If you go as a couple, each of you will get a different plate each course. And like the other ones, in addition to the nine courses, you'll get a number of plates of amuse bouches to start.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I will start with reviews on N9ne and Nove.

N9ne tomorrow.

fyc

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

limon,

Delmonico Steakhouse in Vegas is one of Emeril's restaurants. He was executive chef at Commander's Palace for a number of years.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
I will start with reviews on N9ne and Nove.

N9ne tomorrow.

fyc

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if n9ne is the way you spell the one at the palms, that was my favorite dining experience ever. but i havent been to any places quite as fancy as most of the ones in this thread. also, before i was 21 i was really easy to please because any place that would serve me without carding started off at like 7 out of 10.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

One of my favorite chef/authors is Anthony Bourdain. In his book A Cook's Tour, he does a good job describing what an experience at Thomas Keller's French Laundry is like. Keller gives some insight into what he is trying to accomplish and that is to create a memory. A memory that when the person goes somewhere else, they will say "This remeinds me of the French Laundry". Bourdain goes on to write-

Memory-that's a powerful tool in any chef's kit. Used skillfully, it can be devastatingly effective. I don't know of any other chef who can pull it off so successfully. When you're eating a four-star meal in one of the worlds best restaurants, and tiny, almost subliminal suggestions keep drawing you back to the grilled cheese mom used to make you on rainy days, your first trip to Baskin Robbins, or the first brasserie meal you had in France, you can't help- even the most cynical of us- but be charmed and lulled into a state of blissful submission. It's good enough when a dish somehow reminds you of a cherished moment, a fondly remembered taste from years past. When those expectations and preconceptions are then routinely exceeded, you find yourself happily surprised.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I thought I'd compare two recent experiences from Washingtno, D.C., which sometimes gets overlooked as a city with great restaurants.

My girlfriend and I ate at Citronelle, the Michel Richard restaurant in Georgetown. There are four restaurants in the D.C. area generally thought to be a true four-star experience, and this is one of them.

The food seems to step above "food" and walks easily into the realm of art. We did a three-course tasting menu that was about $90 per person (before wine) and the restaurant also offers a $160 per person menu for secen courses.

The dishes ranged from something done in a more "traditional" style, but fantastically -- duck two ways, for instance, cooked perfectly but with a relatively simple plating. Or a dish they call the "surf 'n turf moasaic" which used thin slices of carpaccio (eel, beef, pepper, tuna, beet and so on... ) to turn the plate into a stained glass window. The most stunning plate I've ever been served, and I was amazed to find out later the dish originated as a way to use scrap.

Service was flawless except for a misstep at the end — we ordered a coffee that went to the wrong table.

The wine list ranges from about $60 to $5,000, but it's weighted around the $100-range and seems to have a lot of good value on the lower end. They have a "coffee list" which struck me as a really nice touch — the downside, was that at the time it listed only one coffee.

All total the bill ran somewhere over $400 after drinks and tip and more drinks and tax and so on. Frankly, I felt a little out of my element here and wasn't 100 percent comfortable but I think that's mostly because the place has so much hype surrounding it. It was an amazing experience - Richard seems to be a very playful chef who is known for making one thing that looks like something else: using, say, mozarella and yellow tomato to make what looks like a hard boiled egg. Touches like this elevate the meal.

On the flip side...

Shortly after we ate at Citronelle, my girlfriend and I ate at Obelisk -- a really small place near Dupont Circle. Chef Peter Pastan offers a five-course meal for $65; his food is considered "Italian New American," whatever that means.

Obelisk is a great contrast to Citronelle's formality - tiny room, smaller cost, less flare. Pastan seems to do as little as possible with his ingredients, but what he does is amazing.

The meal starts with an Italian anti pasti that goes six dishes: light cow's milk cheese, lightly topped with olive oil. A kind of meat, "like bologna, but better," the waitress told me, and it was delicious and light. A bean salad with crab meat, some sort of croquette, and so on...

Second course is a pasta course with three choices; the pasta is all made in-house.

Third is a "main" course that usually involves meat: I opted for the grilled pork that had been brined with salt, sugar and star anise - this was amazing. The taste had a sort of shape and texture to it, and by the next weekend I was trying to brine my own chops in anise.

Fourth is a cheese and fig course - three cheeses, sweet fig jam. Desert was a couple of choices including strawberries over vanilla ice cream with balsamic vinegar. I'd never had this before, but it was amazing.

Total bill ran $235, and it just seemed like such a great experience and value - especially when compared with Citronelle.

Pastan is not Richard, and doesn't claim to be. So much of what he does, he does by doing so little. But the food was really fantastic, the restaurant understated and the service was excellent (the servers in both places knew the menu perfectly).

On the one hand, I don't think you can compare the two places. They have completely different aspirations and deliver very different experiences. Citronelle met expectations, for sure; but Obelisk crushed my expectations, and now I can't wait to go back.

Some restaurants, I think you go to be wowed — the chef is offering a performance as much as a meal. I think that's the direction high-end dining has gone in the last few years. The New York Times had a great column by Frank Bruni on this recently... bruni's column

...I agree with some of it, but don't have the same perspective. It's a very NYC-based column, for sure.

Just some thoughts...

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Review,

Before I left for Iraq me and the girl decided to make reservations for the newly renovated restaraunt on top of the Space Needle..... (Picture top of the world type rest.)

Final dinner tab was 300 with tip.

App. I had the Kobe Beef Strips (Outstanding beyond all belief) 20 bucks (Small portions)

My girl had the Crab cakes 25 bucks.... Bigger portion. I did not taste but my girl said it was the best she had ever had.

Dinner.

My girl had Lobster fettuchini type meal and it was great 50 bucks or so.

I had the 8 oz Filet Migenon with a potato WRAPPED in a bacon strip. I can say with no ego it was the best steak I ever had.

They say the new chef they hired for the grand reopening is one of the top 75 in the world.

The waiters were the best I've ever had water never got to 3/4ths of a glass.

The View is awsome (not as good as vegas view) but still great.

The only problem I had was the menu was WAYYYYYYY TOO SMALL if they did not have the steak I would have not had anything to eat. (I'm not a big seafood fan) Though my girl was in heaven.

Also the light at our table was a bit too bright and tables not made for FAT PPL [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Other than that I would say this was one of my best dining experiences ever.

The wait staff said since they just reopened they will have growing pains.... (Tables and lights etc) but they even gave you a survey to fill out on the cook and staff.

Reservations were required but you get a free ride to top of space needle.

Top notch.... Top Notch

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

I spent 20 years in the restaurant industry. I am one picky bastard. I am personally drawn to country atmosphere. I have not enjoyed my New York 'fine' dining experiences.

The White Barn Inn in Kennebunk Maine. The finest atmosphere ever. The barn must be 150 years old. Beautiful and unusual antiques adorn the lofts. Lots of wood everywhere. The tables are well placed for privacy, the lighting perfect. Too many places either require a lantern to read the menu or sunglasses. The owner pays attention to detail like no other restaurant I have been to.
The owner instructs his staff that the customer experience is theater. Perfect awareness of customer status, while absolutely non-intrusive. The pacing is perfect, always. The simultaneous service is a nice touch. As with all first class dining, you leave feeling satisfied, not full.

The Jackson House in Woodstock Vermont. The finest meal ever. I chose the 13 course chefs' something or other. ($105).
The dining room manager explained each course as it came to the table. He had to. There were some strange things I was sure I was not going to like.....unusual combinations that just didn't sound right( I wish I could recall details, but it was a couple years ago). Every dish was incredible, the blending of ingredients not usually associated were just plain great. Again, the portions were such that we left satisfied, not full.

The Longhorn Steak House, everywhere. They have a fried cheesecake with ice cream, whipped cream, strawberries...JHC what a tasty artery clogger.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
PITTM,

There's no comparison, it is imo at an entirely different level than Craftsteak. Ron Siegel is a truly world class chef.


[/ QUOTE ]

wait, after looking at the ron siegel wiki i realized he was the awesome chef who won the lobster battle on iron chef. that guy ruled. i will be making reservations for the ritz as soon as i find someone to go with.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

your first trip to Baskin Robbins





thats a great line.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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this is classic southern style service. commanders palace new orleans is the best at this.

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

I'm pretty sure this is not restricted to the southern U.S. Not exactly the paragon of classic fine dining culture, restaurants like Commander's Palace notwithstanding.

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i would disagree w/ you on this. service at private clubs and many great public establishments in the south is attentive bordering on ridiculous. many times i have thought they were going try to give me a slave in a doggy bag to take home. its embarassing, the south is another planet.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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limon,

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when you leave spago or ivy you pretty much feel like you got what you paid for it was worth it but not transcendent

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While I agree that when I go to a nice restaurant I want to be blown away, LA is not completely bereft of restaurants that can be transcendent, the two you cited are examples of old standards that are simply solid. Restaurants that can make me say "holy [censored]" in LA would include: Melisse, Patina, Grace, and Diaghilev. Last week I went to Jar on Beverly and it absolutely knocked my socks off, but I had relatively low expectations.

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yes, patina and grace are excellent, campanile and aoc as well, easy 9 out of 10 jar i would give 8.5. but i cant really say i've had a 10 in l.a. again places like gotham and babbo are just on another level. incredible creativity and all the little extras that fit perfectly w/ the meal.no 10's for me in vegas either but i have yet to visit joel rubichon.

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Haven't been to Grace yet, really want to check it out. I think Campanile is the closest I've had to a "10" meal in LA. Jar is excellent and just introduced a fantastic oxtail entree.

Here's a review of AOC I posted a while back in OOT.

One perfect meal I've had was at Montrachet in Tribeca.

-Al

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

alinea, Chicago, 2006
Tasting Menu: $135, Tour Menu: $195
Paired wine with the tour ~$175, chance to upgrade a couple glasses, extra ~$25

First off I'd like to just say that there's no chance my review is going to compare to any of the gillion other reviews that are out there and googlable. It will share my experience though as best I can.

The first surprise we got from alinea was that it was inconspicuous enough from the outside that our cabby had to loop around the block because he missed it the first time. Located basically in a yuppy shopping neighborhood, the reworked townhouse sort of feel doesn't really shock from the street.
street view image

That changes the second you walk in the door though. All doubts that maybe you're in the wrong place are quickly gone. The space is definitely more contrived than Trotter's, but also much sexier, and though it lacks the museum showpieces of Tru, it doesn't suffer from it.

entryway image

After ditching our coats we were led to our heavy (I think) mahogany table with large comfortable chairs. No tablecloths.

We each had a great glass of champagne (we were celebrating, after-all), and when we were comfortably started on that glass, the waiter came back to talk to us about the menu. Since the seating times for the two menus are different by a lot they prefer if you tell them which you'll prefer ahead of time, but it's not like they'll kick you out for changing your mind. We went ahead with the 24 course Tour Menu, got the paired wine, and splurged a tiny little bit extra to upgrade the wines. This meant getting 3 or 4 of the glasses changed out for truly rare things that otherwise we might never taste, so it was an obvious choice. (Not that the other wine selections were common or anything.) In total wine service was 13 pours beyond our original champagne.

I don't know if I can do a plate by plate review, so I'll hit some highlights and then maybe a lowlight or something:

Hot Potato
hot potato image
Was the opener and one of the big stars of the meal. Served with cold potato, trufle, parmesan, and a rose champagne, it set the perfect tone. Many of the dishes are served on plates or utensils created specifically for the restaurant or that dish. The meal mixed well between flavor combinations that are obvious, well liked, and classic, done well - like this dish, and plates that featured either or both new and interesting flavor combinations and ingredients you rarely see used.

Another star for me was the Pear
pear image
Served with celery leaf & branch, and curry. This dish is actually a sphere of pear juice, wrapped in an incredibly thin layer of cocoa butter, rolled in a coating of curry. Eaten as a shot, when it hits your tongue, the whole thing shatters and give you a great "wow." Asking the waiter how this was done/if I could do it at home was a lot of fun.

Several other plates really were impressive both in taste and in presentation:

Bass, with vanilla and artichoke, served on a plate rested on top of a pillow filled with orange scented air, so it deflates and pushes orange scent was inventive and really tasty.

Granola with saffron, served in a rosewater envelope (I didn't know that rosewater could be made solid, let alone in to an envelope) was I felt a bit out of place because well, though tasty and cool (served hanging from a wire) I was almost looking forward to the bacon hanging on a wire i'd heard about, and well, it's granola in the middle of dinner?

Other sort of misses but sort of nots for me included:

Skate with caper lemon and brown butter powders. I just though it was too much powders. Very tasty, again, pretty interesting that you can make these things powders, but it was also pretty easy to not get the amount of powder you wanted with your bite of skate.

Asparagus with egg yolk drops. Made by dropping individual drops of egg yolk into I think just water, and cooking incredibly briefly, the drops were interesting but a little weird and rubbery at the same time. Not a favorite. I think that it's reasonable to have 2 or so out of 24 courses that you're personally not a fan of though, and since the skate still tasted good, and the egg drops were less bad than "that's just weird" I wasn't too sad.

To those thinking maybe the meal was a bit froofy, other courses unpictured and undiagnosed included:

Bison, Lobster, Kobe Beef, Foie Gras. All of which were truly excellent, and inventive (like the Foie Gras served with hibiscus, licorice, and blueberry soda). Sadly the Foie Gras is gone at the moment due to idiotic city-wide bans.

For more pictures and more review, (since I've been using this guy's pics already anyway) this guy, over at a foodie messageboard went at a time when they were serving many of the same dishes I enjoyed, and took a bunch of pictures. alinea's website also has a gallery of some of their work and the interior of the restaurant.

The service was amazing, our waiter was only working with one table in the room we were sitting in, and was assisted by 2 guys who carried plates in to the room, a guy who made sure you always have the right utensils, the sommelier- who was absolutely amazing and came to introduce each new glass of wine we were given and ask about our impressions of previous glasses, and appeared to be able to do this with every table in the restaurant, as well as a couple of other miscellanious helpers. They were never intrusive, always there when we wanted them, and obviously did the little things like having your coat ready when you wanted it, having a cab ready when you step out the door, etc.

The restaurant's decor was brilliant, and the only regret I had the whole evening is that even though there was plenty of space between tables, we could hear the couple at the next table: "Oh no, I don't eat eggplant, asparagus, beef, fish, granola, yogurt, green vegetables, meats, etc, so just make me an entirely different menu." Yeah, that guy got his money's worth with his trophy wife...

Total tab for 2 was somewhere between $1100 and $1200. Dinner can be done far, far less expensively though.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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limon,

Delmonico Steakhouse in Vegas is one of Emeril's restaurants. He was executive chef at Commander's Palace for a number of years.

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yeah i know. thats what i was getting at.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Here is a cliff notes background on my experience. I graduated Johnson and Wales University in Providence, Rhode Island with a degree in Hotel and Restaurant Management. I have ordered food from purveyors, prepped, cooked, expedited, served, tended bar, bounced and cleaned at crappy bars up to 5 star restaurants. In no way do I consider myself a Chef, Writer, or expert in the restaurant field; however I do consider my taste and experiences to be unique.

I have been using Zagat for a long time as a base for finding restaurants in new cities. Although, I believe they are politically backed, I do think they are a good resource for learning about restaurants in most cities.

For this review, I will be talking about a restaurant in the Palms called, N9ne Steakhouse in Las Vegas.

My first experience at N9ne was actually in early 2006. It was a part of a week long birthday experience for me and a few friends. One of my good friends, Geno Bernardo, who is the Executive Chef @ Nove in the Fantasy Tower in the Palms, was the #2 at N9ne for about a year. He encouraged me to check it out as he thought I would like the food as well as experience.

I arrived at the restaurant with 2 of my close friends and proceeded over to the table. You are IMMEDIATELY taken in by the experience of N9ne. Its not uncommon to hear techno or rock n’ roll playing at a moderate level throughout the restaurant along with voices of 20-40 somethings’ talking up the evening. My first thought was wow, we are going to a club for dinner?

I was taken over to my seat which was placed right in the middle of the restaurant facing the center bar. The place is very well designed. When you come into N9ne late, you have to fight off the club crowd over at Rain (sometimes asking for bouncer assistance to get through the lines), then proceed to the left to the hostess stand. The hostess’ are all stunning! Proceed through into the restaurant and you have a long bar on the right that is jam packed with over-dressed movie star wanna-be’s. I mean this is Vegas folks and you know you are in Vegas within 20 feet of being in here!

The restaurant seats a conservative 150 people. It was jam-packed. Joe Montana was with friends in the private room, Paris Hilton was 30 minutes departed, and this place was just getting busy. Geno comes right out to greet us and tell us he is SLAMMED, but will get us some appetizers soon. He also basically recommends our entire meal so we try everything. I put my menu down and have him send over the Sommelier. The waiter is basically point and clicking our experience and just making sure we have strong drinks before the food comes out.

Typical of good restaurants, there is a bunch of people providing different functions. One person is filling your glass with water (tap, sparkling), one person is making sure your table is cleaned, one person is scouting for problems (manager), one is taking your order, and a few are delivering. Pretty typical here, but busy and efficient to say the least.

After about 3 GG’s and soda’s the appetizers arrive. I cannot remember specifics, but I do know the food was all outstanding. Geno tends to go off menu (for friends) which in essence changes the experience for the casual diner. We had Fried Rock shrimp (served in a Chinese box with 3 different sauces), an assortment of sushi, and the stand-by calamari. Food was all great and the sauces made the experience. I absolutely adored the Rock Shrimp.

Where I am a true noob, is wines. I have taken a few wine classes when I was in college and even had a private lesson when I was working in a 5 star, but never paid attention. I really didn’t care about wines then. Only later in my 20’s did I begin to appreciate, love-then-hate white wine and now am learning about the reds. The sommelier determined with our meal that a Washington Merlot was in order. It was one of the best Merlo's I have ever had. Nice and dry and flavorful. It was Ecole No. 41.

Geno then brought out some more sushi. I am a huge sushi fan, and he tends to try and kill us every meal. The dinners came out next. If I remember correctly, we had three courses. Short-Ribs, a New York Steak (cooked to perfection), and a whole lobster (2.5 lbs.). The food was outstanding. The plates rotated til’ clean.

The drinks flowed hard, and the food slipped down our alcohol greased throats with perfection. The service was above and beyond. The atmosphere was YOUNG and HAPPY! I left wanting more, feeling like I just met a hot girl that wanted more time.

This meal SCREAMS Vegas. If you are looking for above average food and service before you go out, N9ne Steakhouse is a great place to start.

Overall:
Food: 10
Service: 9
Décor: 8

Experience: 9


FYC

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

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oT,

Gary Danko (http://www.garydanko.com/) is $61/77/92 for 3/4/5 course tasting menu.


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Damn. Between this and the Ritz-Carlton review, that would be a tough choice to make!

Thanks.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
oT,

Gary Danko (http://www.garydanko.com/) is $61/77/92 for 3/4/5 course tasting menu.


[/ QUOTE ]

Damn. Between this and the Ritz-Carlton review, that would be a tough choice to make!

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

it depresses and slightly confuses me, b/c I'm not sure where in Boston I could get a meal like that for that price. I've never ventured past the $70ish for food realm (Delmonicos, etc). the most expensive (I think) places in Boston are (I think) classic French places like L'Espalier and Aujourd’hui, but these are roughly the same price as Gary Danko and I fear not nearly as good.

looking a little bit more, perhaps No. 9 Park would be on the same level.

nyc sushi: le miu
 

citanul, if you like fresh sushi with absolutely no wait try Le Miu in the east village. 7th and Ave A.

head sushi chef is an ex-Nobu guy and because of the price tag, this place is empty.

the fish is very very fresh: mirugai, aji, ama ebi don't have much of a shelf life so these usually go bad the first. all were fresh.

we had drinks at the bar, 5 apps for 3 ppl, beer and sake during dinner, full sushi orders for 3, coffee, one dessert of red bean/chocolate creme brulee. came out to $120 each.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PITTM,

There's no comparison, it is imo at an entirely different level than Craftsteak. Ron Siegel is a truly world class chef.


[/ QUOTE ]

wait, after looking at the ron siegel wiki i realized he was the awesome chef who won the lobster battle on iron chef. that guy ruled. i will be making reservations for the ritz as soon as i find someone to go with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd go with you, but dont think my wife will like that very much. She would love this place base on El D's review.

ElD,

How long in advance do I need to reserve for the Ritz Carlton?

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Without reviewing a specific restaurant, I'll get to that later, I look at high-end restaurants in a similar way to Zagat, but for the really-high end, there's a slight twist.

In order to receive a high score, a restaurant must succeed in three areas, Food, Service, and Atmosphere. Of these, by far the most important is Food. Without Food, you can't succeed, and nothing you do in the other two will ever make up for substandard Food. But good Food with substandard Service or Atmosphere can still work, just not a top score.

What I expect from Food is something that works, but also something I can't do myself. As good as they can be, a steakhouse is never going to make it to the top of my list, simply because they can't exceed what I can do on my own to a high enough degree that I can justify paying top dollar prices. I want originality, or fantastic technique of classics, something that says the chef knows what he's doing, that he understands not only food, but his audience as well. Wine should match the food, and not just by spending top dollar, but by really digging through the wine cellar for something that matches what the chef is trying to accomplish. There's also the value factor, I should not just be eating money, I've got to feel like I'm getting my money's worth, not ripped off.

Service and Atmosphere are tricky, and are generally only negatives, but if the food is right, they will add to a meal substantially. Great food, but annoying Service will definitely dip my rating of a place, and something annoying about the Atmosphere, like too much noise, loud music, tables too close together, etc. will as well. Of the two, I think Service is much more important for a couple of reasons. Good service can save a meal, either by preventing you from making a mistake, like with wine, or enhancing it, by getting you what you want or providing a wine you never would have thought of on your own. Most aspects of service you shouldn't have to ask for, it simply happens, but they should be prepared if you ask to provide most reasonable requests. And for the absolute best service, they should be practically invisible. Things should happen like magic, you don't even know they happened, they just did.

Now, many restaurants can pull off one of these things, they can make one part of the meal spectacularly well. A local watering hole can have a spectacular hamburger or drink or dessert that you love, but it's never going be high end. That's okay, not everything has to be high end, and finding a place that can do something well is a great experience. A truly spectacular restaurant must do ALL three things well, and they must do them like a symphony orchestra. Everything must work together, not in opposition, that's the twist. The courses must flow together, not jar from one taste to another, the wines must match, the serving must be well timed, courses must be paced, reasonable requests must not throw them for a loop. It's not an easy thing to pull off, and it takes so many people, many invisible, that it's not surprising that it can be so expensive. If you figure what a top restaurant is making on you per hour you're there gross, not profit, and divide by the staff that it takes to make that happen, it's actually a bargain compared to other forms of entertainment.

There's one final factor that the restaurant can't control, a sort of X factor, and you sort of have to discount it. The best meals often have something happen at them that just make them memorable, make them special, that all depend on you. And it doesn't have to happen in the best places, and usually won't. Perhaps a restaurant is a new discovery, you just happened to stumble onto it with no or low expectations. Or someone says something memorable or you try a dish you'd never tried before, or you're celebrating something special. It's the unexpected factor that just burns a place into your brain in a positive way that can never be repeated that will make the most memorable meals. No restaurant can control that, but some do their best to make it happen.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Dr: You can get reservations for the Dining Room with relatively little notice if you are willing to eat early (5:30 or 6) or late (9pm or later).

cit: Wow, that sounds amazing.

All: Hopefully someone has been here: http://www.elbulli.com/ to give us a personal perspective. Tons of reviews and articles about it online, though. Here's one: http://chocolateandzucchini.com/arch...t_el_bulli.php

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Diablo,

I'm not sure it fits into the price range, but have you had that dinner at Elemental yet?

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

firstyearclay,
n9ne is very good. However if you think it's food is a 10 you have not been to a 10 restaurant. I went this summer and it was good, however the steak was clearly a second tier steak. By saying second tier it isn't in my pantheon of steaks it sounds like an insult, but I am a steak snob.

Also from my very limited dining experience in Vegas.
Picasso > n9ne > Prime

Speaking of steak, tonight I'm going to Harbour 60 in Toronto which is in my opinion the best steak I have ever had. It is an incredible restuarant, great food, great value and great service.

Here is the menu note there is sound so turn it off before you open it http://www.harboursixty.com/ I have been about half a dozen times and have probably seen almost everything on their dinner menu, except some of the fish and non-steaks. I also don't eat shellfish because I'm kosher, but I hear good things. The problem with the lamb, veal, etc. is that the steak is so good I can never talk myself out of ordering it.

Also El Diablo mentioned Nobu earlier. During the PCA I went twice during the week is was very good, although again since I don't eat shellfish my dining experience was definitely not optimal.

Speaking of service at the PCA I went out to dinner a couple times with a group of like 20 2p2ers. We went to one restuarant which was good, but not particularly high scale, while there the manager refused to let us all sit together because it was restaurant policy that groups of X would need to be split up. The restaurant was fairly empty and we were in a side room all by ourselves and they refused to let us sit together despite us talking to the manager being very accommodating etc. etc.

Later in the week we went to a more upscale place in the resort. All the servers were very friendly and accommodating and nice even though half of us had been drinking since that afternoon. By the time the meal was over the restaurant was empty and the waiters didn't act snobby or dickish because he were playing credit card roulette and acting like idiots they remained just as courteous.

It seems that a good litmus test for service is how they treat younger people. I have heard lots of stories of servers acting like complete dicks to kids my age at high class restaurants, at good restaurants they won't care unless we are disrupting other individuals.

Note: This post is kind of rambly and disoriented so if some of the stuff might not make sense.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

El D,

What have you heard/experienced wrt Manresa in Los Gatos, also Chez Panisse in Berkeley. I will be going to both of these places fairly soon and would like to hear from someone who has been. Both are consistently top 25 in the world from what i hear.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
firstyearclay,
n9ne is very good. However if you think it's food is a 10 you have not been to a 10 restaurant. I went this summer and it was good, however the steak was clearly a second tier steak. By saying second tier it isn't in my pantheon of steaks it sounds like an insult, but I am a steak snob.

Also from my very limited dining experience in Vegas.
Picasso > n9ne > Prime



[/ QUOTE ]
Pudge714,

I agree that their is BETTER steak houses in the city of Las Vegas. In terms of overall food experience, N9ne was great, but that was because of the personal service given to me. I have been to some great steakhouses (non-chain) in North America. 2 of the more famous ones are Bern's Steak House in Tampa, and Barberian's in Toronto, ON.

I have not been to H60 yet. I have heard great things from the locals though. I was in town twice last year and was turned down for showing up too late (11:00pm for dinner without a reservation).

IMO, Bern's is the pinnacle of all dining experiences and steak. I would challenge their meat to any steak house in the world.

In terms of chains, I also prefer Morton's over Ruth Chris.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

FYC

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Short reviews of nicer places I've been:

Craftsteak in Vegas:

Went with like 12 2p2ers. It's hard to gauge server in this atmosphere, because we were something of a nuisance (late, drunk, Josh P. yelling "JASON T IS A [censored]" really loud). We'd also ordered ahead (actually GuyOnTilt had)Given how we were, I thought they were pretty damn nice to us.

The food was excellent. The steak was great, the aps were solid and I really enjoy the desert selection (some non-standard sorbets IIRC).

El Gaucho in Seattle:

Great service (for my part, I know Entity had some issues with the fact that they didn't boot an obviously drunk and annoying guy faster).

The steak was solid (although I've since taken a position that no steak (making an exception for Kobe beef, which I've only had once and can't really judge) is that much better than what I can make on my own as to be worth the steakhouse prices. They have some pretty standard steakhouse sides that were good, if not mind blowing.

There was a fruit, nut and cheese course before dessert that I really enjoyed. The cheese selection was pretty standard, but it was all delicious.

They do table side prep for both their caeser and their banana's foster. I had the apple pie, upon which they added some of the sauce from the BF, and it was excellent.

The Metropolitian Grill in Seattle.

Big overpriced steakhouse. The steak was good, the sides were very uninspired. Service was ok, but again it's hard to judge because as detailed in another thread, we were pretty lousy customers. Despite costing a good deal more, not close to El Gaucho in terms of quality.

Cafe Juanita in Kirkland.

Very good. French food, but not so french that you were really aware of it. A much better return on your dollar than any of the steakhouses. I've typed up a longer review somewhere that I'll try and dig up.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

PITTM,

I haven't been to Manresa but have heard it is fantastic. I've been to Chez Panisse a couple of times. It is very good, but I think it is overrated. I mean, you get incredible, fresh, seasonal stuff prepared very well. Alice Waters pioneered a lot of what is now standard at a lot of "California Cuisine" places and really blazed the trail for tons of high-end places here to make this sort of simple, fresh food with local, seasonal products (doing this at a time when fine dining pretty much meant heavy sauce, super-rich, French style cuisine). But I just don't find much here to be all that innovative, just a lot of very well executed relatively basic stuff.

I mean, look at the menu: http://www.chezpanisse.com/pgdownmenu.html

Everything on there is gonna be delicious. But there's nothing on that list that makes me say, wow, that sounds like something really incredible and different I must try that!

Don't get me wrong, it is very good. I just don't think that you get the sort of sublime dining experience that you get at many of the restaurants it gets compared to.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

JA Sucker post I've moved here

--

High-end Dining Pisses Me Off

A recent thread about high-end dining got me thinking and I've realized that it pisses me off. I have decided that I hate it. I hate the staff's attitude; I hate the patrons' attitudes more. The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places. I don't care to be "in the know" or to fuel my Patrick Bateman-like desire to be seen. The someliers usually recommend worse wines than I can come up with on my own. Almost without exception, I don't want to talk to the wait-staff. I'd rather talk to my friends/date for dinner. You know, the people who I WANTED to eat with. I want to be loud and tell good stories. I don't want 15 people trying to nose their way into my conversation via trying to fill my water glass. I do not equate attention with good service.

All of these factors and more have made me realize that I just don't enjoy these restaurants as much as I should. I have no objections to paying good money for a great meal, but I don't want to pay great money for a good meal, and the fact of the matter is that most of the time the food just isn't as good as it is many other places, most of which are just kind of neighborhood-type of places.

Feel free to agree or disagree here. This thread should be a liberation of sorts for all people who like food, but hate the attitude that goes along with it.
--

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Sucker,

I moved your post here because I think it is a VERY important part of what should be discussed in this thread.

I agree completely with you about restaurants like that, and pretty much avoid them.

When I think of perfect service at restaurants, it's as if I don't notice the wait staff is there, except when I need something. The wait staff is ATTENTIVE, but not INTRUSIVE. This means that they have a good pulse of when I need another drink and magically appear right about the time I'm thinking "hmmm, almost ready for another drink."

If they are at the table and my wine glass is 2/3 empty, they'll offer to top me off. But they are not hovering about pouring two sips of wine into my glass every few minutes.

I enjoy having a pleasant relationship with the waiter, but I'm not looking to make best friends with the waiter at a place like this either. I want enough information to be able to make good decisions, and that's just about it. A good waiter is a good communicator. He can take cues from a customer as to whether or not they give a damn about where exactly the mushrooms came from.

The Dining Room at Ritz Carlton, Gary Danko, and Quince are three I listed that do this very well. There are many others that also fit the bill. Michael Mina is one restaurant that has a lot of the problems that irritate you. I'll get around to a review of that soon.

It sounds to me like you've been somewhat unlucky with your high-end dining experiences. I've definitely experienced what you are talking about, but I've also experienced a completely different level of service that many in this thread allude to as well. You really need to experience that type of place.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
JA Sucker post I've moved here

--
A recent thread about high-end dining got me thinking and I've realized that it pisses me off. I have decided that I hate it. I hate the staff's attitude; I hate the patrons' attitudes more. The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places. I don't care to be "in the know" or to fuel my Patrick Bateman-like desire to be seen. The someliers usually recommend worse wines than I can come up with on my own. Almost without exception, I don't want to talk to the wait-staff. I'd rather talk to my friends/date for dinner. You know, the people who I WANTED to eat with. I want to be loud and tell good stories. I don't want 15 people trying to nose their way into my conversation via trying to fill my water glass. I do not equate attention with good service.

All of these factors and more have made me realize that I just don't enjoy these restaurants as much as I should. I have no objections to paying good money for a great meal, but I don't want to pay great money for a good meal, and the fact of the matter is that most of the time the food just isn't as good as it is many other places, most of which are just kind of neighborhood-type of places.

Feel free to agree or disagree here. This thread should be a liberation of sorts for all people who like food, but hate the attitude that goes along with it.
--

[/ QUOTE ]

if youve read my posts you know i eat anywhere the food is good. and most of my favorite places would be classified as "cheap eats". i do, however, understand the difference between a good meal and a fine dining experience...here it is: i can go to dan tanas and have a great meal. the staff is awesome everyone knows me, i can bring a group and theyre all treated like kings. i dont even need a menu nino knows exactly what i want and how i want it prepared. he will make anything for anyone in the group if he has the ingredients in the kitchen. mike will pour me a glass of decent red and some wierd stuff he has under the bar after dinner. but i would not consider this fine dining...fine dining is as follows: you walk in, plop yourself down tell the waiter to bring you a 5 course tasting menu w/ drink pairings which may include wine/beer/or cocktails chefs choice and sommelier choice. then you just proceed to get blown away by what follows. its the difference between getting your house painted by a great crew who will do exactly as you say and having your portrait done by a master.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the staff's attitude

[/ QUOTE ]

this is certainly a reason I stay away from certain places, but it can happen at all kinds of places.

I refuse to set foot into Hi Rise Bakery in Cambridge b/c of staff people are the smarmiest people I have ever experienced and these are [censored] retail workers. Great, you make $45 Apple Pies, how about I punch you in the [censored] face?

now, there are plenty of other great bakeries without this attitude, so I don't hate all bakeries. it's probably the same with the best restaurants.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

JA Sucker: I guess what I like best is possibly finding a bit more about a restaurant I have admired for a while and also trying some things I might not normally be able to. For instance, this weekend, I was taken to a restaurant three hours away from my home city based of the strength of their tasting menu. I was blown away by almost all of the seven dishes (got to try sweetbreads and a wonderful dessert wine), but also enjoyed our service (casual, non intrusive, informative) and the flexibility of the kitchen. I overheard that sour cream ice cream was on the regular menu so I asked if I had heard correctly, and was amazed when the ginger ice cream on my dessert tasting was substituted with the sour cream. We were late diners, and after chatting with our server, he brought over the remainder of our favorite wine pairing to finish up.

The chef came out to meet us, and answered some questions on the tasting and he told us to return in the future with any special requests we might have.

I have certainly received some [censored] service in an expensive restaurant before, and some snobby service, but perhaps it is just the casual fun way my boyfriend and I approach dining because we have often received above par and very friendly service, even compared to other diners around us. It might differ if the restaurant is packed with corporate credit card holders every night of the week and most of the attendees assume more expensive = better food. That's not always the case.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

diablo - i can never believe that you think nobu in vegas is a good dining experience. i find it super uncomfortable - everyone's so jammed together. i don't think the service is that good either. food's great, but whatever

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

octopi: "perhaps it is just the casual fun way my boyfriend and I approach dining because we have often received above par and very friendly service"

That is very often the case at all restaurants, including fine-dining places. And you don't have to chat them up if you don't want to. Just some simple eye contact, acknowledgements, and appropriate "thank yous" go a long, long way towards receiving excellent service.

KBZ: Snotty attitude from service industry people is a sensitive subject for me, haha. Thread touches on restaurant service as well.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]

That is very often the case at all restaurants, including fine-dining places. And you don't have to chat them up if you don't want to. Just some simple eye contact, acknowledgements, and appropriate "thank yous" go a long, long way towards receiving excellent service.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm paying 300 bucks for a nice dinner for two, this should go without saying. But that's not really my point here, however.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

la,

I've been lucky (losing ridiculous amounts at Hard Rock and having host make reservations probably helps, btw having an independent restaurant within a casino that they don't comp is the most ridiculous thing ever, but that's a whole different rant) with tables every time I've been at Nobu and gotten good tables that are not jam packed together, but I've definitely seen what you're talking about. I've always had more room at Nobu in Vegas than in New York. However, I suspect my opinion of my experiences there are somwhat colored by the fact that they are always in the midst of a drunken two or three day Hard Rock gambling frenzy. So Nobu, while in actuality quite loud, seems like an oasis of peace and tranquility in the middle of all that. I agree that the experience is probably not as great as my impression of it is.

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

Sucker,

What are some places you've been to that are guilty of this type of behavior?

Re: High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've never spent $500+ on a meal for two including tip and wine...but then again I live in Atl and not NY, LV, CHI, or SF

[/ QUOTE ]

You came really close though. Which brings me to my review...

Quinones at Bacchanalia

Link

A lavish prix fixe multi-course restaurant which opened in the basement of Bacchanalia (established fine dining restaurant in Atlanta) by the same owners to accommodate more upscale parties. AEK and I recently celebrated our 2 year anniversary which included an amazing dinner here.

First of all, the restaurant only seats 11 tables. When we arrived, we were the first and only people there well through the majority of the meal (it was a rainy, freezing Thursday). You have the option of having a wine pairing with each of the ten courses, @ $165 per person. Once you add in the $ for the sparkling water we got (AEK's idea), tax, and tip, you have a pretty steep tab.

Chef's Taster
Complimentary pink champagne, and a crispy fried bite containing cod and potatoes that was creamy and delicious. On the side was a small shot glass of soup (I know this has a name - sorry, I'm not that sophisticated). I think it was cauliflower; also delicious.

First course - Foie Gras Terrine with Port Poached Pears & Blood Orange with Donnhoff Riesling Kabinett

Sadly I discovered I hate foie gras and consider to be comparable to spam. The presentation was beautiful, however, and the Riesling was to DIE for.

Second course - Slightly Cured North Georgia Rainbow Trout with Local Radish & Avocado Puree with Guado Al Tasso Vermentino

This course really wow-ed me as I wasn't too familiar with the practice of curing fish. Our waitress was extremely knowledgeable about the process which basically includes letting the raw fish sit in water, sugar, and vodka for several days which essentially "cooks" it. I was also happy that she was able to tell me where in North Georgia the trout was from, as that is where I was born and raised. The radish and avocado went perfectly with the cured fish. Made us vow to go home and try our hand at curing meat. The wine was slightly more full bodied than the riesling and incredibly delicious.

Third course - Pan Seared Nantucket Bay Scallop with Meyer Lemon, Celeriac & Perigord Truffle with Jurancon Sec

The scallop was served in a small bowl swimming in the rich celeriac sauce, which was creamy and complemented the flavor of the scallop (which was perfectly cooked). The truffle was cool only because I've always been amazed at the price of an olive oil that contains truffles. At this point the wines began running together a little bit.

Fourth course - Pan Roasted Gulf Red Snapper with Young Fennel, Leek & Green Garlic Broth with Marsannay Blanc

The flavor of this dish was my favorite thus far, and what made the presentation so good was that they spooned the fresh broth over the fish as they were serving it, so you caught the full aroma. The seasoning here was dead on - perhaps because I love garlic [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img], and the portion was just the right size to really prolong your appetite rather than filling you up so early on in the meal. This was the last course with white wine and of course the heaviest of the whites (which I usually dislike) but again it was so good I wanted to write down the name so I could buy a bottle later.

Fifth course - Veal Sweetbreads with Roasted Turnips, Cippollini Onions & Lacinato Kale with Barolo

I was a little freaked out about the sweetbreads just because "thymus gland" doesn't sound too appetizing, but this course was wonderful as well. The sweetbreads were baked into some sort of cake, or patty, which seemed like a mixture of many ingredients and flavors. I enjoyed the texture. This was atop the onions and kale which was DELICIOUS and reminded me of sauteed baby spinach. At this point I am still feeling hungry and looking forward to more food.

Sixth course - Braised Kobe Shortribs with Potato Puree & Crispy Fingerling Potatoes with Basel Cellars, Merriment 2002

Now THIS was the real treat. Served completely boneless, there were two piles of meat - one was bright pink and so tender you could cut it with your fork. The other was covered in the heavenly potato puree. Definitely the winning course, hands down.

Seventh course - Sweet Grass Dairy Fresh Goat's Milk Cheese with Savannah Tupelo Honeycomb Spiced Pecans

I love the combination of cheese and spiced pecans. It was a good pallet cleanser after the heavier meat courses.

Eighth course - Beignets with Warm Almond Milk

An amazing dessert, I would give anything to be able to recreate the almond milk.

Ninth course - Caramel Apple Cake with Apple Cream & Balsamic Sorbet with Chateau lafaurie-Peyraguey 2000

Every part of this dessert tasted great except the balsamic sorbet. It tasted like creamy vinegar to me. I think AEK liked it. Quite drunk at this point. The dessert wine was very sweet and almost seem syrupy if that is possible. I liked it but he didn't so I finished both of ours. Heh.

Of course after this they HAD to bring us a small plate of various cookies, pastries, chocolates, and toffees, which I personally enjoyed better than any of the desserts. Throughout the course of the meal we had two alternating servers who were very knowledgeable and friendly.

We also were entertained by the extremely flaming maître d', who, once we divulged that we live in the gay porn district in town, shared with us a story regarding expensive fur shawls and how they are only for "ladies and queens" and gestured to indicate himself. It was hilarious.

Oh, and 2/3 through our meal another table came in, consisting of old, southern, good-ole-boy lawyers. Upon entrance one of them announced that he was "allergic to all seafood." Quickly after this another chimes in that he "doesn't eat the entrails of animals." Well, then why did you come to a prix fixe restaurant serving both, you idiots. Of course, they were accommodated.

I have been to a lot of upscale restaurants in Atlanta, San Francisco, SoCal, Boston, etc... and this takes the cake BY FAR.