Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]


1) It's pretty friggin hard for FT to ban 100k hand/mo users unless they know for certain that something "illegal" is going on. [censored], after all of that overwhelming evidence that SukitTrebek presented, and all the analysis done by dozens of quality sleuthing and poker experts, even WE don't even for certain. It's all speculation. Allow FT the time to conduct this "further investigation" using this new evidence and stop jumping down their throats.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree more with this. The guy said himself they take bots very seriously. He also said they were unable to conclude if it was a bot or human player.

I guess "We take bots very seriously" should be amended to "We take bots very seriously, just not as seriously as we take our rake".

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

even Party Poker does a better job than this...

how embarrassing for FT

FT has probably just lost all credibility, I just hope the business they lose is substantial enough for them to revisit their policies, but probalby not... it never is

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
A month from now, I really don't feel like reading complaints about how they don't come here anymore.


[/ QUOTE ]
If that happens, I can give the complainers a link to a corporate-speak-gibberish generator, so they can get their full dose of FTP GEORGE PAUL AND RINGO.

Here is a sample:

"Yes, we understand your concern with the missing FTP REP posts. We are working on a solution to this issue. Just this morning a meeting of all the high decision makers was held. Possible avenues of a seamless approach to solve this important issue were explored in detail. We will be sure to keep you up to date with any important developments as soon as possible. Thank you for your continued patience."

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

First off, I've read all of the original thread and this thread and this is my first post in response...

Along with playing poker online I've also played successfully at many sportsbooks and casinos... As anyone who has any success in those areas know these companies very frequently give the boot to undesirable players... If you investigation's results came back as inconclusive wouldn't the better response have been to give these players their money back and show them the door?

... Oh but I forgot that these are very high volume "players" (the term player has to be used very loosely in this case of course) and by showing them the door you would have, of course, cost your site alot of money (At least till the public caught wind of their and your actions)... Well at least now we all know (or at the least the 2+2 community anyhow) that if we choose to play at your site we are playing against potential bots (or at least their human exquivelent)...

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
If not bots, then it cannot be anything other then multi-accounting. One player gives the shots, the others just push the buttons.
Just another ZeeJustin variant.


[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="red">NO NO NO NO NO!</font>

The outrage with ZeeJustin was that he as times was sat at the same tables as himself, unavoidably sharing hole card information therefore colluding with himself (despite opening extra SNGs to "depreciate the advantage")

There is no issue with people playing a set strategy if they are not colluding!

The only advantage these swetshop players have is reduced tilt / increased reads via volume of others in addition to ther own play - similar to that gained from coaching / sweating / reading "official regulars" threads.


The danger of botting is that a bot can play unattended / multiply limited only by CPU power- if there is a real human carrying out a predefined strategy flawlessly, THIS IS NOT A BOT - THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM - THIS IS NOT UNETHICAL!

That is, if there is a human actually confirming each and every action. FTP concludes this is the case... do we have ANY conclusive evidence to the contrary?

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

With FTP's HH and resources they can surely determine if they are bots or not.

1) Have they ever timed out?
2) How long have they played without taking breaks?

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]

Well at least now we all know (or at the least the 2+2 community anyhow) that if we choose to play at your site we are playing against potential bots (or at least their human equivalent)...

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed... but WTF is the problem in playing against the "human equivalent"? The problem of bots is not their stategic play - it is their lack of human... why would there be any objection to playing against a bot-like human?

I fail to understand this so-called problem... oh noes! a predictable nit?

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Was this guy, I forget his name, actually sponsored by Full Tilt in the WSOP? I saw a picture of him with full tilt clothing on. If he was, the plot thickens with this story.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
If not bots, then it cannot be anything other then multi-accounting. One player gives the shots, the others just push the buttons.
Just another ZeeJustin variant.


[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to yourself. Do you think you make any sense at all?

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

It seems everyone's in favor of "innocent until proven guilty" until they realize what it means.

I read through the whole previous thread and while I feel (fairly strongly) that this is a team of bots, I don't think there's any damning evidence. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence and a lot of coincidences, but nothing for sure.

I think poker sites should seriously consider banning PT and it's equivalents. Without a way of tracking and collecting data, it's impossible for bots to operate. Also this would make it much easier to detect people who are cheating since they'll have to be tracking statistics somehow.
I know this will piss off all the HUDbots who depend on PT for their livelihood, but I think that as botting becomes more sophisticated and better, I think it's something we're going to have to live with.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
even Party Poker does a better job than this...

how embarrassing for FT

FT has probably just lost all credibility, I just hope the business they lose is substantial enough for them to revisit their policies, but probalby not... it never is

[/ QUOTE ]

They must be doing something right, the amount of players was above normal tonight and the 1/2NL fishier than ever. Probably all the 2+2 wannabees that are looking for an edge while both the bots and the 2+2 sharks are away.

FT's way of handling this situation is no different to any other site.
The main problem with these sites is that employees are at the best mediocre poker players and the financial aspect of the situation weights much more in their eyes than the integrity of the site as seen by a small group of pros.
We are talking 80/100K a month in rake generated by 4 accounts and while they are obviously forced to say that they take the matter very seriously, they most certainly don't want to lose the accounts bussiness.

It is very likely that those accounts will be offered a name change, thus creating the illusion that they willingly stopped playing.

If we, at 2+2, can't find them at the tables, it will be difficult to keep bitching about them.
Even if we are now looking for them under the new names, it will take months of datamining before we can come up with some stats and we'll never be able to prove that we are dealing with the same bots/accounts/or whatever we want to call them.

Whatever we like it or not, FT is a bussiness and it's first priority is profit.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

In all honesty we don't pay you what should amount to be well over a hundred million dollars in profit from rake this year for nothing. You are paid well to handle this type of stuff FTP. If you can't do it surely you can hire somebody who can. "We don't know if they are humans or bots" after 2 months from an extremely profitable company doesn't seem to be very good.

And to all those that say we are "lucky" to have FTP reps on this board... Seriously. Most companies that depend so much on repeated business and interaction of their customers have 24 hour phone support lines, not to mention people that monitor popular/influential outlets. 2+2 forums would very much so qualify as one of these popular/influential outlets.

FTP Doug and Sean seem to interact well with players and represent their site in a good manner for the most part. For that I am thankful as a player, but to say it is more of our loss if major sites don't represent themselves than it is their loss, I feel that is wrong.

This situation doesn't seem to have been handled very satisfactory at all to me, all things considered.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think poker sites should seriously consider banning PT and it's equivalents. Without a way of tracking and collecting data, it's impossible for bots to operate. Also this would make it much easier to detect people who are cheating since they'll have to be tracking statistics somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. How completely backwards.

The "bots" in this case do NOT require PokerTracker in order to operate. They play a set strategy that doesn't ever deviate to account for opponents.

As a matter of fact, it's US who need PokerTracker to find them out.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Yikes. We all knew that a non-substantive response was likely, but that was pretty bad after all of what's already transpired. Hopefully, you'll be at least a little more forthcoming in the future.

I wasn't going to post too many details from the emails I traded with FT, but because of this lack of response by FT it seems necessary. I realize you're not going to answer many of these questions but I'll ask anyways.

After I saw the bots reappear and sent an email that read like the end of my OP, your representative replied indicating that there are many different actions that FT can take when an investigation is completed. That if complete guilt can't be shown, restrictions are placed on the accounts or continued monitoring takes place. In your OP, you acted as if the accounts were completely exonerated after a lack of proof was found. You don't have to go into detail about whatever double-secret-probation you placed the accounts on. But please answer directly, did you completely exonerate the accounts or did you take some level of action?

In justifying how the bots were likely human grinders, your rep alluded to how they had a significant chat history. This seems pretty frightening. Can you confirm or deny that this was used as evidence that they weren't bots?

Did you use the fact that most days one tournament was played in addition to the 16 or so cash game tables as proof it wasn't a bot?

Why have I been thanked over and over and over for my help, if I have misunderstood the situation? FTPDoug even thanked me for my vigilance in posting the OP. Seems pretty weird to thank someone who created a firestorm of negative publicity if you believe that they've misunderstood the situation?

In my original email, I offered to help in any way I could, discussing the bots' tendencies or whatever. No one ever took me up on it. Do you think that was a mistake?

Did you come up with an explanation why human grinders would get up from the tables when I logged in? Did you look at timestamps to confirm this did or didn't happen?

In the emails, your rep would refer to the stat picture I sent itself as a piece of evidence. I assumed that upon beginning the investigation you would have created your own versions of the stat pictures with access to all hand histories. Thus you'd have created stat summaries using 300-500k hand samples for each player. Can you please confirm that you have the ability to do this? It won't be giving away any secrets, we all assume (hope) you can.

Hopefully, you'll at least discuss hypotheticals. Hypothetically, if you had concrete proof that players were using a computerized decision making system with humans inputting the actions, was this allowed previously? Is it allowed in the future? Have any policies changed on what players are or are not allowed to do?

Hypothetically, if you were to have hand samples of hundreds of thousand of hands for several players, is there any level of precision with which the convergence of the stats would by itself be enough proof that robotic decision making is being made?

This is just one guy's opinion, but my impression from the emails was that your investigation was indeed less detailed than my OP. It seems that you very likely did think they were bots, but did not have the level of sophistication at poker to prove it (even with access to all kinds of info, hh's, timestamps, whatever). You then placed some kind of vague restriction on the accounts, my post erupted, you realize you've made a mistake, and are now hoping that conclusive proof comes out in the main thread. Thus allowing you to finally reverse your decision and move on. Am I close?

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think poker sites should seriously consider banning PT and it's equivalents. Without a way of tracking and collecting data, it's impossible for bots to operate. Also this would make it much easier to detect people who are cheating since they'll have to be tracking statistics somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. How completely backwards.

The "bots" in this case do NOT require PokerTracker in order to operate. They play a set strategy that doesn't ever deviate to account for opponents.

As a matter of fact, it's US who need PokerTracker to find them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

They never would have been discovered if it wasn't for PT data. FTP surely wasn't looking for them. Banning PT is a horrible idea because it gives them complete freedom to operate without the scrutiny of other players. This is also why Stars would need to open up to data mining before I'll completely trust playing there.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
even Party Poker does a better job than this...

how embarrassing for FT

FT has probably just lost all credibility, I just hope the business they lose is substantial enough for them to revisit their policies, but probalby not... it never is

[/ QUOTE ]

They must be doing something right, the amount of players was above normal tonight and the 1/2NL fishier than ever. Probably all the 2+2 wannabees that are looking for an edge while both the bots and the 2+2 sharks are away.

FT's way of handling this situation is no different to any other site.
The main problem with these sites is that employees are at the best mediocre poker players and the financial aspect of the situation weights much more in their eyes than the integrity of the site as seen by a small group of pros.
We are talking 80/100K a month in rake generated by 4 accounts and while they are obviously forced to say that they take the matter very seriously, they most certainly don't want to lose the accounts bussiness.

It is very likely that those accounts will be offered a name change, thus creating the illusion that they willingly stopped playing.

If we, at 2+2, can't find them at the tables, it will be difficult to keep bitching about them.
Even if we are now looking for them under the new names, it will take months of datamining before we can come up with some stats and we'll never be able to prove that we are dealing with the same bots/accounts/or whatever we want to call them.

Whatever we like it or not, FT is a bussiness and it's first priority is profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if FTP offers to change their screen names every month for them. That way, we will never be able to spot them again.

Ah, the conspiracy theory never ends.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Yes but if any electronic aid was considered cheating and cause for account ban/funds seizing, it would be way way easier for the sites to prove who is cheating and who isn't just through spyware, right?

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]

Hypothetically, if you had concrete proof that players were using a computerized decision making system with humans inputting the actions, was this allowed previously?


[/ QUOTE ]

SukitTrebek,

not saying anything particuarly about FTP (I can't find a FAQ page to confirm/deny) but according to Stars this is explicitly allowed, and according to Party this is not explicitly disallowed. I Imagine FTP is similar.

If there is a human involved in executing the decision, not only a bot, no problem. Banned software "BOTS" only occurs when a human cannot override the advice of advisory softwares.

I posted links to policy pages in the massive thread, can post them here if need be.


dave.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

I saw your other post in the main thread and definitely respect what you have to say. I know Stars allows multiple players to a hand, but I find it incredibly hard to believe robotic assistance in decision making is allowed anywhere (I'll have to find those links). Still, I hope FTPSean will at least clarify their position in this thread.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

I'm afraid this whole situation is very unsatisfactory. As a c50k a month hand player with accounts at multiple sites, I will certainly look to migrate business elsewhere.

I think the key issues are:
1) The concept of allowing multiple users at one location is not ethical in my opinion. This may not be covered by the terms and conditions, and therefore can't be acted on, but this is merely an argument for updating terms and conditions.
2) Almost everyone believes there is a degree of decision automation here which goes beyond basic charts. The statistics are too similar across all 3 streets. There is debate about the degree of this automation. Again your terms &amp; conditions do not appear tight enough - apparently you operate to a binary is a bot/isn't a bot definition.
3) I would agree that to confiscate funds you need evidence beyond reasonable doubt. But there is a lot of circumstantial evidence here, which suggests on the balance of probabilities these guys are botting. In my opinion this is enough to ban accounts and return funds.

The simple question to ask is whether if you convened a meeting of all your customers whether they would approve or disapprove of the outlined operation (even that agreed by DLNUT as fact). The answer would overwhelmingly, in my opinion, be that they would be disgusted by such practices.

I will be extremely angry to face any of these players again (yes, I have lost a stack to Full_Tilting), irrespective of my views of their capabilities.

Full Tilt faces a choice. It can seek to sweep the inevitable continued issue of bots under the carpet, with complicit acceptance from winning players, until their profits are eroded away. This has two issues 1) Customers do have the ability to switch away to other sites, and integrity can be a point of competitive advantage) 2) It gives your business a limited lifespan before profits are competed away on your bot infested tables

Alternatively you can work with your core customer base (yes, here is a good place to start) to tackle the issue head on.

Currently, your stance is clearly that of see no evil hear no evil. Don't underestimate the power of viral marketing in your business. If your business loses momentum it will not recover. I for one would be a part of that negative publicity generation, unless you up your game.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

FTPSean, now that you are done with the bot issue, could you please see that my doom switch get's turned off?

TY

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hypothetically, if you had concrete proof that players were using a computerized decision making system with humans inputting the actions, was this allowed previously?


[/ QUOTE ]

SukitTrebek,

not saying anything particuarly about FTP (I can't find a FAQ page to confirm/deny) but according to Stars this is explicitly allowed, and according to Party this is not explicitly disallowed. I Imagine FTP is similar.

If there is a human involved in executing the decision, not only a bot, no problem. Banned software "BOTS" only occurs when a human cannot override the advice of advisory softwares.

I posted links to policy pages in the massive thread, can post them here if need be.


dave.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct!

Decision Support software, which tell a player exactly what to do in any given situation is specifically allowed at Stars, as long as the player is actually taking the action.

It would be most helpful, if FTP specifically addressed the question of what software is and is not allowed to be used on their site.

Here is a link to Stars Software FAQ , as an example of the information requested from FTP.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

This begs the question...is it really possible to ever prove a player is 100% a bot? Seems impossible to me unless if they come out and admit it OR if they are using some confirmed bot software which i'm sure might be used by only a small percentage of botters.

Personally I think the proof (statistical evidence) of a bot is as great in this case as you'll ever see. Fine cant prove it 100%, let them keep their money but at least change the T&amp;C and ban them from your site.

I guess what I am asking is what proof is needed to determine a bot?

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
This begs the question...is it really possible to ever prove a player is 100% a bot? Seems impossible to me unless if they come out and admit it OR if they are using some confirmed bot software which i'm sure might be used by only a small percentage of botters.

Personally I think the proof (statistical evidence) of a bot is as great in this case as you'll ever see. Fine cant prove it 100%, let them keep their money but at least change the T&amp;C and ban them from your site.

I guess what I am asking is what proof is needed to determine a bot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I the bot owner stops playing at the site because of all the publicity at 2+2 and other poker forums and takes his bussiness elsewhere (and all the $$$$ he pays in rake), then I am certain that would be the perfect moment to proclame that the bot has been banned. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Not to get this thread too far off of the topic of Full Tilt's worthlessness, but I just read the Stars FAQ and Dave, I disagree that robotic assistance/human inputting is allowed. IMO it is simply not addressed specifically in either the prohibited programs or allowed programs, with it strongly implied that it wouldn't be allowed.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not to get this thread too far off of the topic of Full Tilt's worthlessness, but I just read the Stars FAQ and Dave, I disagree that robotic assistance/human inputting is allowed. IMO it is simply not addressed specifically in either the prohibited programs or allowed programs, with it strongly implied that it wouldn't be allowed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please view from the list of "Acceptable Programs", #4 Texas Calculatem

Observe the Flash Demo. (EDIT: I have not tried the progem, I presume the demo is accurate)


I only saw this tonight after re-checking the link before posting in the main thread.

The thing has a big slider bar, indicating the recommended action "Fold / Check / Call small bet / Raise / You have the NUTS!" depending on action / hand strength.

http://www.calculatem.com/

EDIT: link added

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid this whole situation is very unsatisfactory. As a c50k a month hand player with accounts at multiple sites, I will certainly look to migrate business elsewhere.

I think the key issues are:
1) The concept of allowing multiple users at one location is not ethical in my opinion. This may not be covered by the terms and conditions, and therefore can't be acted on, but this is merely an argument for updating terms and conditions.
2) Almost everyone believes there is a degree of decision automation here which goes beyond basic charts. The statistics are too similar across all 3 streets. There is debate about the degree of this automation. Again your terms &amp; conditions do not appear tight enough - apparently you operate to a binary is a bot/isn't a bot definition.
3) I would agree that to confiscate funds you need evidence beyond reasonable doubt. But there is a lot of circumstantial evidence here, which suggests on the balance of probabilities these guys are botting. In my opinion this is enough to ban accounts and return funds.

The simple question to ask is whether if you convened a meeting of all your customers whether they would approve or disapprove of the outlined operation (even that agreed by DLNUT as fact). The answer would overwhelmingly, in my opinion, be that they would be disgusted by such practices.

I will be extremely angry to face any of these players again (yes, I have lost a stack to Full_Tilting), irrespective of my views of their capabilities.

Full Tilt faces a choice. It can seek to sweep the inevitable continued issue of bots under the carpet, with complicit acceptance from winning players, until their profits are eroded away. This has two issues 1) Customers do have the ability to switch away to other sites, and integrity can be a point of competitive advantage) 2) It gives your business a limited lifespan before profits are competed away on your bot infested tables

Alternatively you can work with your core customer base (yes, here is a good place to start) to tackle the issue head on.

Currently, your stance is clearly that of see no evil hear no evil. Don't underestimate the power of viral marketing in your business. If your business loses momentum it will not recover. I for one would be a part of that negative publicity generation, unless you up your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

#17: PokerBility http://www.pokerbility.com/

Also seems similar, at a quick glance. Offering intra-hand advice - "PokerBility - Will give you the next move!" is their catch phrase.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

You're right, #4 is a type of program that I assumed would be banned (even if it is for novice players).

It's still too illogical to think that a place that outlaws datamining would allow humanbotting, and that it was an oversight when they made the rules. I would imagine we'll see an update to Stars rules soon.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
This begs the question...is it really possible to ever prove a player is 100% a bot? Seems impossible to me unless if they come out and admit it OR if they are using some confirmed bot software which i'm sure might be used by only a small percentage of botters.

Personally I think the proof (statistical evidence) of a bot is as great in this case as you'll ever see. Fine cant prove it 100%, let them keep their money but at least change the T&amp;C and ban them from your site.

I guess what I am asking is what proof is needed to determine a bot?

[/ QUOTE ]

If this case doesn't qualify, I don't see any possible way that FTP could find a bot without the players specifically coming out and saying I'm A BOT!. The numbers here are unheard of and we will likely never see something this clearcut again. It will be very easy for these guys to vary the numbers between accounts now. It doesn't have to be drastic, but the most minute variations will now be undetectable b/c of the precedent set here.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
This begs the question...is it really possible to ever prove a player is 100% a bot? Seems impossible to me unless if they come out and admit it OR if they are using some confirmed bot software which i'm sure might be used by only a small percentage of botters.

Personally I think the proof (statistical evidence) of a bot is as great in this case as you'll ever see. Fine cant prove it 100%, let them keep their money but at least change the T&amp;C and ban them from your site.

I guess what I am asking is what proof is needed to determine a bot?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you answered it...an admission and/or finding the software is about it.

In the face of overwhelming evidence but no proof, they can go one of five ways.

1) Do nothing.
2) Do nothing to the player(s), but step up the monitoring.
3) Place restrictions on the player(s) and step up the monitoring.
4) Give them back their money and show them the door.
5) Seize everything and show them the door.

I would hope most of us could agree that 1 and 5 are unacceptable. Hopefully FT has gone the way of 2 or 3 in this case. I think any of the options from 2-4 is acceptable (3 would be my ideal), but I doubt many sites will be happy to impose 4...that's a lot of money to send out the door.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This begs the question...is it really possible to ever prove a player is 100% a bot? Seems impossible to me unless if they come out and admit it OR if they are using some confirmed bot software which i'm sure might be used by only a small percentage of botters.

Personally I think the proof (statistical evidence) of a bot is as great in this case as you'll ever see. Fine cant prove it 100%, let them keep their money but at least change the T&amp;C and ban them from your site.

I guess what I am asking is what proof is needed to determine a bot?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you answered it...an admission and/or finding the software is about it.

In the face of overwhelming evidence but no proof, they can go one of five ways.

1) Do nothing.
2) Do nothing to the player(s), but step up the monitoring.
3) Place restrictions on the player(s) and step up the monitoring.
4) Give them back their money and show them the door.
5) Seize everything and show them the door.

I would hope most of us could agree that 1 and 5 are unacceptable. Hopefully FT has gone the way of 2 or 3 in this case. I think any of the options from 2-4 is acceptable (3 would be my ideal), but I doubt many sites will be happy to impose 4...that's a lot of money to send out the door.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is in fact quite funny. Based on the many, many threads complaining about FT, they precisely specialize in doing 1 and 5.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're right, #4 is a type of program that I assumed would be banned (even if it is for novice players).

[/ QUOTE ]

As did I, until I did a spot of research before posting in the main thread [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I think it is just as telling that Party does not liston on the "unfair advantage" list - they kind of endorse anything not explicitly banned, whereas Stars at least lists things that are OK.


I think it is fair to say that if true (although I don't believe so, based on nlnuts AHK posts indicating somewhat of an AHK n00b) if he made an app that parsed a text file containing the Pre / Flop / Turn / River rules of the "system" (added to this they deny the existance of such written records.... my drones do it all from memory lol), then flashed up a big red "FOLD", green "CALL" etc., this would be allowed (on Stars at least).

And I kind of agree. an indicator is just that - an indicator. A bot physically does the actions for the player... now, the ring-master may well have a hold over the dorones, i.e. reducing pay / punishment for deviating from instructions - but so long sd the actual human still has the oppurtunity to deny the instructions snd think say "FFS, he is FOS.. I push!" against recommended strategy - that player cannot be clasified as a bot - and because of this (human emotion can override recommendation at any time) is nowhere near as dangerous to the game as a real, emotionless fully automated bot.


Thoughts?


[ QUOTE ]
It's still too illogical to think that a place that outlaws datamining would allow humanbotting, and that it was an oversight when they made the rules. I would imagine we'll see an update to Stars rules soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like an update to Stars terms to remove such "intra-hand advisor" applications. Although I'd far rather they opened up so called "datamining"... as this is the way we are alerted to such strange behaviour in the first place.

Added to which datamining is very easy for those that don't care to follow t&amp;c and will datamine anyway, we honest players are at a significant disadvantage with the current status quo [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

dave.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
2+2,
I’m sorry for the delay in posting to the bot thread. We felt it was very important to thoroughly review the investigation notes and findings again before commenting and I should have just posted a quick message to let you guys know we were looking into it.

We were definitely aware of the importance of this situation and held a series of meetings to discuss our established policies as well as the terms of this specific case. While I am unable to discuss the specific details of the investigation, I will make some general comments.

We take bots very seriously, and for obvious reasons cannot go into the details of our policies, procedures and detection methods. Our meetings served to further refine these policies and processes in general terms, and also with regards to this investigation specifically. Having said that, if Full Tilt Poker Security confirms the use of a bot by any player, all accounts involved would be permanently closed and all funds remaining in the accounts could be subject to seizure.

After doing our due diligence in this case, we came to the following determinations:

• During the investigation we found the evidence to be inconclusive in supporting either determination (human or bot).

• After careful consideration, the evidence did not warrant the seizure of funds and permanent account closure.

• We stand by our decision. Having said that, re-opening an account after an investigation such as this one does not mean we have made an irreversible decision. We will continue to reevaluate this situation.

It is our responsibility to ensure a level playing field for all of our players. As evidenced by this thread, some situations are not as clear cut as they first appear and require additional refinement of established policies and procedures. We are working on additional measures to detect any activity that compromises the integrity and fairness of our games; this is of paramount importance and will never be taken lightly.

Sean

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for coming on and "explaining" the situation to the community, but that post really doesn't say anything!


Is it really statistically possible that 4 people could have stats like this over 100K hands? Can you show us the math that determines your "inconclusive" proof on this?

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid this whole situation is very unsatisfactory. As a c50k a month hand player with accounts at multiple sites, I will certainly look to migrate business elsewhere.

I think the key issues are:
1) The concept of allowing multiple users at one location is not ethical in my opinion. This may not be covered by the terms and conditions, and therefore can't be acted on, but this is merely an argument for updating terms and conditions.
2) Almost everyone believes there is a degree of decision automation here which goes beyond basic charts. The statistics are too similar across all 3 streets. There is debate about the degree of this automation. Again your terms &amp; conditions do not appear tight enough - apparently you operate to a binary is a bot/isn't a bot definition.
3) I would agree that to confiscate funds you need evidence beyond reasonable doubt. But there is a lot of circumstantial evidence here, which suggests on the balance of probabilities these guys are botting. In my opinion this is enough to ban accounts and return funds.

The simple question to ask is whether if you convened a meeting of all your customers whether they would approve or disapprove of the outlined operation (even that agreed by DLNUT as fact). The answer would overwhelmingly, in my opinion, be that they would be disgusted by such practices.

I will be extremely angry to face any of these players again (yes, I have lost a stack to Full_Tilting), irrespective of my views of their capabilities.

Full Tilt faces a choice. It can seek to sweep the inevitable continued issue of bots under the carpet, with complicit acceptance from winning players, until their profits are eroded away. This has two issues 1) Customers do have the ability to switch away to other sites, and integrity can be a point of competitive advantage) 2) It gives your business a limited lifespan before profits are competed away on your bot infested tables

Alternatively you can work with your core customer base (yes, here is a good place to start) to tackle the issue head on.

Currently, your stance is clearly that of see no evil hear no evil. Don't underestimate the power of viral marketing in your business. If your business loses momentum it will not recover. I for one would be a part of that negative publicity generation, unless you up your game.

[/ QUOTE ]


The above is indeed a very good response, and Sean needs to answer its points to have any credibility. I would like to emphasize a couple of those points and add to them.

1) Same IP play

You can come up with all the excuses you want for this, from college dorms to small towns to wifi or whatever, but it is a huge issue and one that touches on collusion. Some players might have to be limited in their play options or indeed given no options, in order to insure game integrity for the vast majority of players.

2) Over-enablement of software aides

Now this doesn't just apply to FT. But allowing HUDs and datamining undermines the integrity of the game in the minds of the casual players, and allows a hyper-predatory decimation of losing players when the emphasis should be on the long-term goal of keeping the games going, instead of focusing on short-term gains that risk the long-term viability of the games. Choose the long-term viability of the game for both your business and the players over short-term gains and desire of some players here to over-fish the waters heedless of its consequences.

3) FT needs to see the many alternatives in these situations, and have several alternative responses to match them, instead of just making it only 2 choices.

This means that it's not just botting or not botting, with "inconclusive" always being a win for the investigated account. As pointed out in the main thread, a mix of botting and regular play to cover same has to be considered.

And it means that there is more than one response to an investigated player. It's not just guilty and funds seized, or innocent/inconclusive and keep on as usual. The third option as noted by others is to say it is inconclusive but doesn't smell right, and return their funds and close their accounts.

4)*Pro-active* means need to be taken to root out botting and collusion.

This means not hiding behind the valid but ass-covering response of "we can't divulge our methods" stuff, and making a public committment to datamining the hand history database to find these things yourself instead of it being on the players mostly as a default. If FT (or any other site) isn't willing to expend some computing and investigating time on such pro-active means, then any statements that they do take botting and collusion seriously are bald-faced lies. Taking seriously = using *effective* means.


Finally I would like to commend FT and Doug and Sean for their ongoing communication with 2+2'ers. I realize it's not always easy and you face lots of tough questions. And that you two aren't the owners and have constraints on what you can say. But a substantive response to the points raised here is necessary for FT's future credibility.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

FT just lost my 10K MGR

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Imo SukitTrebek has pretty much said it all in his post:

[ QUOTE ]
Yikes. We all knew that a non-substantive response was likely, but that was pretty bad after all of what's already transpired. Hopefully, you'll be at least a little more forthcoming in the future.

I wasn't going to post too many details from the emails I traded with FT, but because of this lack of response by FT it seems necessary. I realize you're not going to answer many of these questions but I'll ask anyways.

After I saw the bots reappear and sent an email that read like the end of my OP, your representative replied indicating that there are many different actions that FT can take when an investigation is completed. That if complete guilt can't be shown, restrictions are placed on the accounts or continued monitoring takes place. In your OP, you acted as if the accounts were completely exonerated after a lack of proof was found. You don't have to go into detail about whatever double-secret-probation you placed the accounts on. But please answer directly, did you completely exonerate the accounts or did you take some level of action?

In justifying how the bots were likely human grinders, your rep alluded to how they had a significant chat history. This seems pretty frightening. Can you confirm or deny that this was used as evidence that they weren't bots?

Did you use the fact that most days one tournament was played in addition to the 16 or so cash game tables as proof it wasn't a bot?

Why have I been thanked over and over and over for my help, if I have misunderstood the situation? FTPDoug even thanked me for my vigilance in posting the OP. Seems pretty weird to thank someone who created a firestorm of negative publicity if you believe that they've misunderstood the situation?

In my original email, I offered to help in any way I could, discussing the bots' tendencies or whatever. No one ever took me up on it. Do you think that was a mistake?

Did you come up with an explanation why human grinders would get up from the tables when I logged in? Did you look at timestamps to confirm this did or didn't happen?

In the emails, your rep would refer to the stat picture I sent itself as a piece of evidence. I assumed that upon beginning the investigation you would have created your own versions of the stat pictures with access to all hand histories. Thus you'd have created stat summaries using 300-500k hand samples for each player. Can you please confirm that you have the ability to do this? It won't be giving away any secrets, we all assume (hope) you can.

Hopefully, you'll at least discuss hypotheticals. Hypothetically, if you had concrete proof that players were using a computerized decision making system with humans inputting the actions, was this allowed previously? Is it allowed in the future? Have any policies changed on what players are or are not allowed to do?

Hypothetically, if you were to have hand samples of hundreds of thousand of hands for several players, is there any level of precision with which the convergence of the stats would by itself be enough proof that robotic decision making is being made?

This is just one guy's opinion, but my impression from the emails was that your investigation was indeed less detailed than my OP. It seems that you very likely did think they were bots, but did not have the level of sophistication at poker to prove it (even with access to all kinds of info, hh's, timestamps, whatever). You then placed some kind of vague restriction on the accounts, my post erupted, you realize you've made a mistake, and are now hoping that conclusive proof comes out in the main thread. Thus allowing you to finally reverse your decision and move on. Am I close?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if we can get (at least partly) satisfactory answers to all these questions, this situation would calm down a great deal...

The question remains, whether you (FTPSean/FTP) are able to and/or are willing to answer all these questions in order for many 2+2 users, frequent player on your site, to calm down. Don't get me wrong on this one, but I doubt you will.

Your turn now...

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Well I'm certainly glad that you used the last two days to review the situation at hand and provide us with such an informative, detailed post on the issue. Rather than provide some statistical information that may be analyzed independently, you choose to sidestep the issue with vague hand-waving notions of "we can't disclose our methods!" I truly appreciate the hard work you do on this front, and I'm sure that if the issue involved credit card fraud, you would have been just as diligent in finding a solution.

Further, I'm glad to see a company that rakes hundreds of millions of dollars is able to respond in the timely manner of 87 days to the initial poster. Your consistency in this regard is truly outstanding, for it seems like every week I'm reading a post detailing the sheer speed at which FullTiltPoker's customer service is able to respond to inquiries, allegations, and investigations. Your ability in this area is truly at the top of the industry. Why wait to hear Pokerstars tell me something in 2 days when I can get the same reply from FullTilt in 8 weeks? Bravo, customer service at its finest.

A+, will continue to play there again and again.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

FT will never give an answer to those questions because by doing so (in a way we find acceptable) it would admit mistakes on their side.

True story: I know some people that owned a (quite) popular poker site for a few years. Once (that I know of) the site was hacked and many players lost a few dollars each (like 10/20 each). The site knew perfectly well it had been robbed but never admitted nor refunded the stolen money. To them it was more important to say "Your money is 100% safe with us" than being honest and admitting the security breach. It even sent out false account statements to the concerned players. The only thing that was important was not sending out the message that they were not a safe place.

PS. please don't ask the name of the site, I won't tell.

Re: Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread
 

Serious post time:

Anyone who thinks that nlnut isn't using bots is either stupid, ignorant, or doesn't understand poker very well. It's obvious he's using a bot...or his team is using bots. Now, while I concede there may not be enough evidence to warrant seizure of funds, it certianly seems that at least closing their accounts and mailing them a check for the funds is at LEAST the very minimum that should be done.

How can someone seriously argue that those post flop stats are "based off of a secret strategy"...give me a break. Either Full Tilt doesn't care and just wants the rake money, or their fraud team is headed by a bunch of morons. (I highly doubt they'd risk everything by allowing bots, so I'm assuming that their security team is just retarded)

Step it up guys, this level of incompetence is highly unacceptable.