Re: How much is degree from a low level law school worth? (and more ?s
 

[ QUOTE ]
tier 4's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Roger Williams, Cooley, etc. If you go to one of these for a year and get all As, and you have experience and good undergrad record, and a compelling story, you can transfer up.

Basically, you will need to be the best at your lower tier school and make it obvious to the admissions people at the higher ranked school that you belong there.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone,

Let's say someone wanted to just start a private practice (be an ambulance chaser, do wills, etc..) Forget the amount of hours per week or pay level. Does anything matter other than being admitted to the bar?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you plan on taking over someone elses practice or have a lot of legal experience, it is VERY difficult to just come straight out of law school/bar passage and do this. Obviously some people do it, just "hang a shingle" as they say, and go on your own. The problems are obviously huge startup costs, lack of any client base or name recognition. If you have the money and the drive, you can make it happen, but it will be a rough road for the first few years.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

I would guess the best routes to take if you're going to just hang out a shingle would be ambulance chaser, traffic law, or immigration. With those, you're either looking to do volume work or hit a home run with some easily manipulated jury.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

Noah-

Where are these huge start-up costs incurred?

I'm not thinking about doing this, BTW. Just curious.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

Hello everyone,

As I've mentioned a couple of times before, I'm the hiring partner at a large New Jersey law firm.

I could type for hours (and produce an utterly tl;dr post) responding to the posts above based on my personal experience and opinions (I graduated law school in 1991) (that's not to insinuate that everything said above is untrue, some of it is very accurate). Instead of doing that and boring the hell out of everyone, and to the extent anyone feels that I might be able to add something to this discussion, feel free to post questions to me in this thread, or PM me if you prefer.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
Noah-

Where are these huge start-up costs incurred?

I'm not thinking about doing this, BTW. Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd imagine the cost of getting office space, getting it up and running, and the cost of trying to get your name out, when there is no income coming in.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

Here are some hiring partner questions:

1. At your firm, is the hiring partner position permanent or temporary?
2. Does your firm give you any credit for it, or is it just something that people have to do?
3. Do you still have to maintain the same hour requirements while being the hiring partner?
4. What are your class standing requirements? Top 20%? Top 10%? Do higher ranked schools get a lower cut line? Would you rather have a 50th percentale Yale grad or a top 10% Rutgers grad?

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

It would be incredibly difficult to "hang a shingle" in immigration law. I agree with you on "ambulance chaser" and "traffic law."

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here are some hiring partner questions:

1. At your firm, is the hiring partner position permanent or temporary?
2. Does your firm give you any credit for it, or is it just something that people have to do?
3. Do you still have to maintain the same hour requirements while being the hiring partner?
4. What are your class standing requirements? Top 20%? Top 10%? Do higher ranked schools get a lower cut line? Would you rather have a 50th percentale Yale grad or a top 10% Rutgers grad?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your questions, all good ones.

1. We have rotating committee obligations. Hiring partner is not one of the more popular jobs, as the hiring committee involves more work than most other committees. The prior hiring partners have all moved on to "better" appointments when given the opportunity. I enjoy being the hiring partner. I enjoy interacting with the students, and I enjoy doing interviews. I enjoy having something of a head start on knowing our new hires and our summer associates. So I imagine that I'll keep doing it for a while ... but it's not really a permanent position.

2. Being a partner is a lot like being an associate. Those that succeed are those that show the most commitment to the team, those who go the extra mile. Even in a partnership, you may have those who are into it more than others. So while we all are assigned to various administrative obligations, those of us who give up more of our free time than others to help the firm may receive some type of additional, small financial benefit at the end of the year.

3. My hours now are more than when I was an associate, but I have much more non-billable time than I did. There is much more administrative work, as well as client development obligations. Personally, I enjoy most of the administrative stuff, and the client development stuff can be fun too -- a lot of golf and travel.

I should mention that I do not work in New York City. So no matter what happens, my workload is never onerous. I rarely work on the weekends, and if I do it's usually from home, Sunday night, after the kids go to bed. I have a life (which includes time for poker), and have time to enjoy it.

4. Class standing requirements vary depending on the school. But they are far from set in stone. There are a number of other things we consider -- employment experience, clerkships, interests, diversity, etc. It's not just grades, although grades are certainly important.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Noah-

Where are these huge start-up costs incurred?

I'm not thinking about doing this, BTW. Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd imagine the cost of getting office space, getting it up and running, and the cost of trying to get your name out, when there is no income coming in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but starting any business takes money. Unless you buy an existing business, having cash flow on day one is going to be an issue.

I live in a small area, and have mentioned before that I'm in advertising sales. The only reason I was curious is that I know what office rent is here, and I know what effective advertisiing costs. I just didn't know if being a lawyer had other costs I didn't know about. I would think, especially in smaller markets, one could "hang a shingle." I don't know really anything about law, but I would guess that settling a case is worth a decent amount of money, as in the ambulance chasing example. One wouldn't have to settle a ton of cases to payback a years worth of overhead and advertising costs. Borrowing the money might be an issue. I don't know, just thinking outloud.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
Noah-

Where are these huge start-up costs incurred?

I'm not thinking about doing this, BTW. Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]


Even just starting you are going to need the normal office expenditures of office space, furniture, etc. Add in advertising because you need to get people in the door. You're going to need a secretary. Subscription legal research tools are also expensive.

I mean, if money wasn't an issue, an intelligent person that had gone to law school and passed the bar could make it work, but its definitely an uphill climb. (Also the whole money not being an issue probably isn't true for most).

Maybe this doesn't add up to much more than starting your own company in another field, but obviously going out on your own is never easy.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more ?s)
 

First, find out if you really like the law as much as you think you do. Try to get a job as a paralegal. You'll at least get some legal research experience and have something to put on your law school app. that demonstrates interest. It isn't exactly like being a lawyer, but close enough to give you a pretty good idea. You'll also get to see what a day in the life is really like. Also, if they really like you, you might be able to get a job from them once you have your JD.

Second, to answer you main question, it depends on what you want to do. Where you go doesn't matter as much at smaller law firms. You'll make less, but you won't have to work as many hours either. If you want the big bucks at a big firm, then it definitely matters.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more ?s)
 

Not a lawyer myself. My brother has a law degree from the University of Miami (Fla) and did his undergrad work at Columbia in NYC. He was a lawyer in a sole proprietership, a partner in a small firm and worked for a large firm. I think he liked litigating but had trouble working with people. As a sole proprieter he had some difficulties in collecting legal fees and such. He doesn't practice law anymore FWIW. IMO it's not a profession for everyone and you need to find your niche in the law.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Noah-

Where are these huge start-up costs incurred?

I'm not thinking about doing this, BTW. Just curious.

[/ QUOTE ]


Even just starting you are going to need the normal office expenditures of office space, furniture, etc. Add in advertising because you need to get people in the door. You're going to need a secretary. Subscription legal research tools are also expensive.



[/ QUOTE ]

And don't forget malpractice insurance. I've heard it's hella expensive (though I actually have no idea how much it actually is).

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone,

Let's say someone wanted to just start a private practice (be an ambulance chaser, do wills, etc..) Forget the amount of hours per week or pay level. Does anything matter other than being admitted to the bar?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you plan on taking over someone elses practice or have a lot of legal experience, it is VERY difficult to just come straight out of law school/bar passage and do this. Obviously some people do it, just "hang a shingle" as they say, and go on your own. The problems are obviously huge startup costs, lack of any client base or name recognition. If you have the money and the drive, you can make it happen, but it will be a rough road for the first few years.

[/ QUOTE ]

i believe i can answer questions about this because this is exactly what i did. i have never had a job working for anyone else and am approaching my fifth anniversary being admitted to the bar this april and now own a firm with approximately 25 employees.

i graduated undergrad at U of Florida and went to law school at Stetson which is a small private school in Florida with a good reputation for litigation because of their trial team, but nothing special otherwise. Finished right at about dead middle of the class but i come from an entrepreneurial family of small business owners so i always knew that my grades didn't matter as i was going "hang my shingle" and work for myself.

started off by myself with about $11,000 in savings and just leased an office in another persons suite. hustled business, anything i could get and was making $3000 a month after i paid the bills. after six months, got a secretary but i realized that being a general practitioner was never going to make me any serious money. the lifestyle was great working about 25-30 hours a week but the ceiling was right there in my face.

being in the law world you learn about certain practices that are factories whether its bankruptcies, foreclosures, title work, traffic tickets whatever that are more like business services disguised a law practices. nothing can make one despise the law more than going to law school and being a business man, that was going to be my answer.

did some research, got a partner and borrowed $50k to start. we didnt take a paycheck for 8 months and started working in a spare bedroom. first two years were hell. 6 and 7 day weeks were norm which was especially tough for a lazy person like myself, but i have a great partner who is very ambitious who pushed me to put in the time.

after 3 and a half years things have calmed down and a lot is on auto-pilot. i work from 9:30-7 mon- thur and leave at 5 on fridays. saturdays are rare unless something has to get done. go to court two or three days a week and in the office the rest. we also go to about two conferences per year for clients or other things in our area. i have about $110,000 in student loans that i consolidated so my payment is $500 per month for about 26 more years.

we pour a lot of money back into the company whether its employees, computers, marketing. as our business mentor Big Tom Callahan says, you're either growing or dying, there ain't no third direction. can't say that i love the work,and its a lot of stress for someone in their early thirties, but i am very grateful for the opportunity.

as long as you pass the bar, the sky's the limit for hungry sharp people and it doesn't matter what school you go to. i'll be happy to answer any questions i can about starting their own firm right out of law school but i certainly don't claim to know it all as we make mistakes and are learning all the time as we continue to try to grow our shop.


CLIFF NOTES: smoke weed at no name law school and still pass bar, work for myself, make good monies

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

I've written long posts about this before so I don't feel like repeating myself too much. However, while it is quite clear that a degree from a top tier school has much much more objective value J.D's from second tier schools combined with top honors/law review/etc are still very valuable, especially in the region where the school is located. If BIGLAW is the goal though, going to a second tier school is very risky unless you have a very high level of confidence in your ability to completely own the rest of the student body the first year.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

I plan on attending a joint MBA/JD program in the future and don't particularly care what grades I get. However, I plan on parlaying these degrees into better learning opportunities for the businesses I run and to gain credentials to get myself in the front office of an MLB team.

It all depends on what you want to do with the degree.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

Niss and others,

Ok. I have the opportunity to go to a 3rd tier school with a large scholarship (2 years free) or instead attend a 2nd tier school at full price... what has a higher EV?

Basically I am between Hofstra (scholarhsip) and Brooklyn/Cardozo... and I want to practice in NYC.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've written long posts about this before so I don't feel like repeating myself too much. However, while it is quite clear that a degree from a top tier school has much much more objective value J.D's from second tier schools combined with top honors/law review/etc are still very valuable, especially in the region where the school is located. If BIGLAW is the goal though, going to a second tier school is very risky unless you have a very high level of confidence in your ability to completely own the rest of the student body the first year.

[/ QUOTE ]

It always makes me laugh how every law message board is full of posters talking about Biglaw, what they need to do to get there, anecdotes from people who are there, etc., yet such a small percentage of graduating attorneys actually end up in Biglaw. There needs to be WAY more discussion on what you do when you can't get into/don't want to get into biglaw (similar to this thread).

Re: How much is degree from a low level law school worth? (and more ?s
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tier 4's?

[/ QUOTE ]

Roger Williams, Cooley, etc. If you go to one of these for a year and get all As, and you have experience and good undergrad record, and a compelling story, you can transfer up.

Basically, you will need to be the best at your lower tier school and make it obvious to the admissions people at the higher ranked school that you belong there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anecdotal, but I know of two Cooley grads, younger people (read: no "life experience), mid-level grades who each transferred to schools in the 50-100 category.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
Niss and others,

Ok. I have the opportunity to go to a 3rd tier school with a large scholarship (2 years free) or instead attend a 2nd tier school at full price... what has a higher EV?

Basically I am between Hofstra (scholarhsip) and Brooklyn/Cardozo... and I want to practice in NYC.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on my personal experience:

1. I think Cardozo ranks meaningfully higher than Brooklyn and Hofstra, at least for hiring purposes. In fact, I think Hofstra ranks better than Brooklyn. This is my opinion and experience and is not based on any US News rankings or other rankings. My experience with Hofstra students has been very good.

2. You can do well if you are one of the top students out of Hofstra, as well as one of the top students out of Cardozo. The difference is that top 15% to top 1/3 out of Cardozo may fare better (outside of Long Island) than that range at Hofstra.

3. There are a number of good firms on Long Island -- both branches of big firms and local firms -- that pay well and do meaningful, interesting work. You should not limit yourself to working in Manhattan if you are considering Hofstra.

4. Law school is way too expensive these days, and the debt can take a long time to pay off. Unless I am made of money, I am seriously considering the free ride.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
Niss and others,

Ok. I have the opportunity to go to a 3rd tier school with a large scholarship (2 years free) or instead attend a 2nd tier school at full price... what has a higher EV?

Basically I am between Hofstra (scholarhsip) and Brooklyn/Cardozo... and I want to practice in NYC.

[/ QUOTE ]

My very anecdotal observations are that a top 10%, law review student at B/C is much better off than at Hofstra, solely because half the B/C law review goes directly to NYU/Columbia and never spends another day on campus. It's to the point where they probably need to keep a backup LR list handy.

Everyone else, however, is going to be muuuuuch better off not paying any money to graduate from Hofstra. 125K in loans (counting housing etc.) to graduate from a Tier 2 school is way too much.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

Bump.

Okay, so I'm currently a 1L at Texas Wesleyan (a tier 4 school), where I will almost certainly finish the year in the top 5%. I have a half-tuition scholarship, and will have a lot of opportunities to do stuff like law review, moot court, whatever here.

Would I be better off transferring to SMU (#50ish on USNews, but pretty well-respected in DFW) where I would probably not excel quite as much? Also, it is super-expensive there, so I'd graduate w/ close to 100k in loans probably.

My gut says stay put where it's cheap and just pwn, but I seem to be getting the impression that a degree from a Tier 4 is all but hopeless. What's the concensus from you lawyers out there?

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more ?s)
 

One thing to consider. Contrary to what you may have heard, law school (particularly in the Northeast) often is more stressful at second and third tier law schools than at top law schools. If you are at Harvard, only those at the very bottom of their class create problems for themselves.

At Seton Hall, those in the bottom half are sweatin pretty hard.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bump.

Okay, so I'm currently a 1L at Texas Wesleyan (a tier 4 school), where I will almost certainly finish the year in the top 5%. I have a half-tuition scholarship, and will have a lot of opportunities to do stuff like law review, moot court, whatever here.

Would I be better off transferring to SMU (#50ish on USNews, but pretty well-respected in DFW) where I would probably not excel quite as much? Also, it is super-expensive there, so I'd graduate w/ close to 100k in loans probably.

My gut says stay put where it's cheap and just pwn, but I seem to be getting the impression that a degree from a Tier 4 is all but hopeless. What's the concensus from you lawyers out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something that seems very location specific, so those of us not in Texas, won't be able to answer as well as those in the DFW area.

Sounds similar to Phoenix, where half the positions at big firms are filled by schools ranked around #50 (Arizona and Arizona State). Unfortunately, there was no tier 4 school around at the time to compare, so I can't help you. Try asking a bunch of 2Ls. You might also want to try your career center, though they may sugar coat things for you.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bump.

Okay, so I'm currently a 1L at Texas Wesleyan (a tier 4 school), where I will almost certainly finish the year in the top 5%. I have a half-tuition scholarship, and will have a lot of opportunities to do stuff like law review, moot court, whatever here.

Would I be better off transferring to SMU (#50ish on USNews, but pretty well-respected in DFW) where I would probably not excel quite as much? Also, it is super-expensive there, so I'd graduate w/ close to 100k in loans probably.

My gut says stay put where it's cheap and just pwn, but I seem to be getting the impression that a degree from a Tier 4 is all but hopeless. What's the concensus from you lawyers out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is something that seems very location specific, so those of us not in Texas, won't be able to answer as well as those in the DFW area.

Sounds similar to Phoenix, where half the positions at big firms are filled by schools ranked around #50 (Arizona and Arizona State). Unfortunately, there was no tier 4 school around at the time to compare, so I can't help you. Try asking a bunch of 2Ls. You might also want to try your career center, though they may sugar coat things for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is great advice. Since you're top 5%, you clearly will have the pick of the firms that hire from your school. The thing is, are those firms you want to work for? If previous year's top 5% aren't getting hired by firms you want to go to, then move. If they are getting hired by places you'd like to work, stay put.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bump.

Okay, so I'm currently a 1L at Texas Wesleyan (a tier 4 school), where I will almost certainly finish the year in the top 5%. I have a half-tuition scholarship, and will have a lot of opportunities to do stuff like law review, moot court, whatever here.

Would I be better off transferring to SMU (#50ish on USNews, but pretty well-respected in DFW) where I would probably not excel quite as much? Also, it is super-expensive there, so I'd graduate w/ close to 100k in loans probably.

My gut says stay put where it's cheap and just pwn, but I seem to be getting the impression that a degree from a Tier 4 is all but hopeless. What's the concensus from you lawyers out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

i went to a tier 3 school and finished in middle of the class. i also owe $110,000 and its my only regret. if i could have gone to a tier 4 school for free, knowing what i know now, i would have in a second. the thing is, i work for myself.

if you are pwning that well and get on law review, you will undoubtedly get a job. i've been admitted less than 5 years ago and several friends who did law review, moot court are already making $80-$90k. just about everyone i have spoken to, ran in to, or heard about from my class is working with about the worst case making $45-$50k working for the government.

its what you make of it. keep grades up, make law review, get a clerkship, whatever. as long as you aren't social retard, you will get a decent job and at least you won't have to cover the same monthly nut that most other people coming out will

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bump.

Okay, so I'm currently a 1L at Texas Wesleyan (a tier 4 school), where I will almost certainly finish the year in the top 5%. I have a half-tuition scholarship, and will have a lot of opportunities to do stuff like law review, moot court, whatever here.

Would I be better off transferring to SMU (#50ish on USNews, but pretty well-respected in DFW) where I would probably not excel quite as much? Also, it is super-expensive there, so I'd graduate w/ close to 100k in loans probably.

My gut says stay put where it's cheap and just pwn, but I seem to be getting the impression that a degree from a Tier 4 is all but hopeless. What's the concensus from you lawyers out there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it the difference between 0 and 100K, or 50K and 100K? Also, can you possibly transfer to Texas?

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

The difference is between like 40k and 100k, since I receive about 10k a year for tuition + a little extra.

I would say the odds of my getting accepted at Texas are fairly slim. Depends on whether they care about undergrad.

The reason I couldn't have gotten into there from the get-go is because I had like a 3.1 GPA at a [censored] state school. My LSAT was 167. If my law grades have a huge impact maybe I have a shot.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
It would be incredibly difficult to "hang a shingle" in immigration law. I agree with you on "ambulance chaser" and "traffic law."

[/ QUOTE ]

My Mom graduated from law school (UMKC) when she was 45 or so. She continued to work for the Veterans Administration for a while after that doing arbitration. But then opened her own immigration law practice 8 years ago or so. AFAIK she's doing fine and loves the work, even has a couple employees.

I think she's trying to do adoptions too, but mostly still does immigration. She had worked for an established immigration lawyer in KC for a while. So I think that helped some. But it's not like she took over his practice or anything.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be incredibly difficult to "hang a shingle" in immigration law. I agree with you on "ambulance chaser" and "traffic law."

[/ QUOTE ]

My Mom graduated from law school (UMKC) when she was 45 or so. She continued to work for the Veterans Administration for a while after that doing arbitration. But then opened her own immigration law practice 8 years ago or so. AFAIK she's doing fine and loves the work, even has a couple employees.

I think she's trying to do adoptions too, but mostly still does immigration. She had worked for an established immigration lawyer in KC for a while. So I think that helped some. But it's not like she took over his practice or anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know someone who life a big firm after only working there for about 1 year to hang her own shingle as an immigration attorney. I haven't talked to her in years, but last time I did, she was doing pretty well for herself.

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

Here's a topic that seems to be popular among my female colleagues: is there a bias against women in big firms?

All the stats show that, although females and males attend law school at roughly the same rate, there are many more male partners than female partners. Why is that?

The fact that the time for females to become elected partner happens to coincide with the prime child birthing years leads more females than males to abandon the 2000+ hours to concentrate on children. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Can that be changed?

Re: How much is a degree from a low level law school worth? (and more
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a topic that seems to be popular among my female colleagues: is there a bias against women in big firms?

All the stats show that, although females and males attend law school at roughly the same rate, there are many more male partners than female partners. Why is that?

The fact that the time for females to become elected partner happens to coincide with the prime child birthing years leads more females than males to abandon the 2000+ hours to concentrate on children. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Can that be changed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be more than happy to answer this, but this is such a big detour from the original thread, I think we need a new thread.