Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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Your the Green Bay Packers...3-0 average D, Farve looks great, good WRs, dismal to below average o-line. no running game

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I don't think he is a 2nd round pick better than their current RB.

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hes better than anyone ude draft rb wise in the 2nd round in 07.

and gb is gonna have to draft someone i get one in free agency

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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Consistency would be a huge upgrade for the Bears.

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Over the last dozen games or so, Grossman has been pretty consistant.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

Re: Michael Turner

If I'm Green Bay, I make that deal in a heartbeat.

Hell, if I'm like half the teams in the league, I make that deal in a heartbeat.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

The Packers running game will come around eventually. Remember when Samkon Gado was putting up some phat numbers there for a while? Their last two games have been against terrible pass defenses, there's no reason to establish a run game against NYG or SD. Just spread 'em out and throw. Same this week against Vikings. No reason to run on a single play the entire game. They cannot defend pass well and have killer run defense.

I lol'd when the Packers hired Mike McCarthy when he was the o-coord of the worst offense in years with the 49ers but not laughing any more. He really seems to be doing a great job.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

This is the Bears funeral. They can't score enough points to make up for a banged up defense with Griese at QB.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Griese is overrated and ran a West Coast offense in Denver and Tampa - remember how great Steve Beuerlein and Bubby Brister were in that offense? He's also overrated because of one season where he had a 19-4 TD-INT ratio - the rest of his career he's been closer to 50-50.

He'll probably be better than Rex Grossman, but expecting anything beyond average is expecting too much.

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Brian Griese has the highest career QB rating in both the Denver and Tampa Bay franchise histories. If their "system" was so easy to put up good QB numbers in, then why has nobody else IN THE HISTORY OF BOTH FRANCHISES ever put up as good of a QB rating?

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Because passer rating is a crappy way to evaluate QBs.

shamelessly stolen from MMQB:

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Johnny Unitas' career quarterback rating: 78.2.

Jeff Blake's career quarterback rating: 78.0.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

That isn't a problem with passer rating, it's a problem with comparing quarterback stats across eras. This is mostly due to higher completion percentages, higher touchdowns, and lower interceptions.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
That isn't a problem with passer rating, it's a problem with comparing quarterback stats across eras. This is mostly due to higher completion percentages, higher touchdowns, and lower interceptions.

[/ QUOTE ]

5 QBs from the same era with nearly identical career passer ratings:

Ken O'Brien: 80.44
John Elway: 79.86
Tony Eason: 79.72
Mark Rypien 78.93
Jim Everett 78.59

O'Brien, Elway and Eason came into the league in '83, Rypien and Everett in '86.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

John Elway kinda sucked for most of his career, though.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
John Elway kinda sucked for most of his career, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was only the winningest QB in history until this year, often carrying teams on his back that would've gone 4-12 without him. Yep, he sucked.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

Neil Lomax 82.68
Dave Kreig 81.50
Randall Cunningham 81.47
Boomer Esiason 81.06
Warren Moon 80.90


or if you prefer a more modern example:

Daunte Culpepper 90.75
Chad Pennington 89.32
Tom Brady 88.36

There is simply no way get around the fact that passer rating doesn't come close to getting a full view of QB impact. No matter how many times someone like Kurt Warner holds the ball way too long, gets sacked and fumbles, it will never tarnish his passer rating.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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John Elway kinda sucked for most of his career, though.

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He was only the winningest QB in history until this year, often carrying teams on his back that would've gone 4-12 without him. Yep, he sucked.

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The Elway myth has grown over the years. JOA's view is a lot closer to the truth than you are giving it credit for.

From 88-92 he had 73tds and 80 INTs. The idea that he always carried bad teams on his back until TD got there is fairly dubious.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

Rex > Phillip Rivers

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
The Elway myth has grown over the years. JOA's view is a lot closer to the truth than you are giving it credit for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that whenever someone uses the phrase "carried a team on his back" it's always a myth. I didn't start following football until the mid 90's though so I can't speak about most of John Elway's career.

I don't think this Bears team wins a Super Bowl with Brian Griese but they were in danger of falling right out of the playoffs with Rex.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

Just by reading the post game comments you could tell that the team has given up on this guy. This doesn't rest squarely on the coach's shoulders, I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of veterans actually requested that change.

And the people saying 'Griese is not the answer' are completely missing the point. Anybody but Rex is really what matters at this point.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

If Griese comes out and sucks do you go back to Rex or move on to Orton?

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
If Griese comes out and sucks do you go back to Rex or move on to Orton?

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There's a reason why Lovie went with Rex after his injury even though Orton was winning. On Rex's first pass attempt after he came back, he completed a 15 yard out route. Everyone was amazed because it was the first time in weeks we had completed a pass that deep. That is a play Orton is completely incapable of making.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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If Griese comes out and sucks do you go back to Rex or move on to Orton?

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I think the fact that Rex got benched you can't bring him in if Griese faulters. Thats it for Rex unless Brian gets hurt.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

O/U on when Bears fans change their tune?

"He just needed a break to get his confidence back."
"He's the only one with an NFL arm; his ceiling is higher."
"He's still only played one year, last year he was basically a rookie."
"We should put him back in and see how he finishes the season, he deserves one more chance."
"We love you Sex Cannon"

I predict that if the Bears make the playoffs this year, Rex will be have retaken the starting job by week 8, that's the Detroit game at home. If the Bears continue to suck and end up missing the playoffs, Rex will get his last chance starting in the 13th game against the Giants.

Other than one year of Kramer, the Bears haven't had a consistently decent QB since McMahon, and I am so [censored] sick of it.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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Griese is overrated and ran a West Coast offense in Denver and Tampa - remember how great Steve Beuerlein and Bubby Brister were in that offense? He's also overrated because of one season where he had a 19-4 TD-INT ratio - the rest of his career he's been closer to 50-50.

He'll probably be better than Rex Grossman, but expecting anything beyond average is expecting too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brian Griese has the highest career QB rating in both the Denver and Tampa Bay franchise histories. If their "system" was so easy to put up good QB numbers in, then why has nobody else IN THE HISTORY OF BOTH FRANCHISES ever put up as good of a QB rating?

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If this guy is so great, why isn't he still starting for Denver or Tampa Bay? He wasn't that great. He had some good years and not-so-good years. QB rating favors West Coast offenses.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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If this guy is so great, why isn't he still starting for Denver or Tampa Bay?

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He lost his job in TB to a torn ACL.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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From 88-92 he had 73tds and 80 INTs. The idea that he always carried bad teams on his back until TD got there is fairly dubious.


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I doubt you watched much of Denver in the pre-TD days, but I sure did.
Numbers can't tell you the whole story (or even most of it) during those years.


Reeves' system was always to run the ball and keep it close for 3 quarters, then expect Elway to win it in the 4th. This is not going to lend itself to a good QB rating, nor to a great TD-Int ratio (lots of running in the Red Zone, lots of desperation long balls as time ran out). If Elway had played somewhere like Miami under Shula, he would've broken every passing record there was.

Without Elway, the team would just fall apart. One year he got hurt with the Broncos 4-0 and up 14 against Minnesota. They lost 6 or so straight while he was injured, and still almost made the playoffs once he got back. If any QB can ever be described as carrying a team on his back, it was Elways for most of his career. His first 3 Superbowl teams wouldn't have even made the playoffs with a meh QB.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
Neil Lomax 82.68
Dave Kreig 81.50
Randall Cunningham 81.47
Boomer Esiason 81.06
Warren Moon 80.90


or if you prefer a more modern example:

Daunte Culpepper 90.75
Chad Pennington 89.32
Tom Brady 88.36

There is simply no way get around the fact that passer rating doesn't come close to getting a full view of QB impact. No matter how many times someone like Kurt Warner holds the ball way too long, gets sacked and fumbles, it will never tarnish his passer rating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, overall, just disputing the use of Unitas/Blake.

Edit: Chad Pennington was one of the best QBs in the league before his arm got shredded to bits, and the same with Daunte before he only had one leg. Brady never really flourished for a couple years. Obviously now Brady is far better than those guys, but I think you'll find that both Culpepper and Pennington had years where they were far better than Brady.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neil Lomax 82.68
Dave Kreig 81.50
Randall Cunningham 81.47
Boomer Esiason 81.06
Warren Moon 80.90


or if you prefer a more modern example:

Daunte Culpepper 90.75
Chad Pennington 89.32
Tom Brady 88.36

There is simply no way get around the fact that passer rating doesn't come close to getting a full view of QB impact. No matter how many times someone like Kurt Warner holds the ball way too long, gets sacked and fumbles, it will never tarnish his passer rating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, overall, just disputing the use of Unitas/Blake.

Edit: Chad Pennington was one of the best QBs in the league before his arm got shredded to bits, and the same with Daunte before he only had one leg. Brady never really flourished for a couple years. Obviously now Brady is far better than those guys, but I think you'll find that both Culpepper and Pennington had years where they were far better than Brady.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pennington is still putting up big passer ratings. He is sitting at 121 right now. You don't need the big arm to do it.

Culpepper gets credit for his arm, but passer rating doesn't care at all that he is one of the the most prolific fumblers in NFL history. Kreig also gets a pass in this area.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

Yeah, it misses key parts (Sacks + fumbles, too much weight on touchdowns, not enough weight on first downs, needs more emphasis on ypa and less on completion %).

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]

If this guy is so great, why isn't he still starting for Denver or Tampa Bay? He wasn't that great. He had some good years and not-so-good years. QB rating favors West Coast offenses.

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Why is his mediocrity being mentioned and compared to other QBs. He doesn't need to be good, he just needs to be better than Rex

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
John Elway kinda sucked for most of his career, though.

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He was only the winningest QB in history until this year, often carrying teams on his back that would've gone 4-12 without him. Yep, he sucked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument is that QB rating is flawed and that WINS is a superior metric of QB ability?

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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From 88-92 he had 73tds and 80 INTs. The idea that he always carried bad teams on his back until TD got there is fairly dubious.


[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt you watched much of Denver in the pre-TD days, but I sure did.
Numbers can't tell you the whole story (or even most of it) during those years.


Reeves' system was always to run the ball and keep it close for 3 quarters, then expect Elway to win it in the 4th. This is not going to lend itself to a good QB rating, nor to a great TD-Int ratio (lots of running in the Red Zone, lots of desperation long balls as time ran out). If Elway had played somewhere like Miami under Shula, he would've broken every passing record there was.

Without Elway, the team would just fall apart. One year he got hurt with the Broncos 4-0 and up 14 against Minnesota. They lost 6 or so straight while he was injured, and still almost made the playoffs once he got back. If any QB can ever be described as carrying a team on his back, it was Elways for most of his career. His first 3 Superbowl teams wouldn't have even made the playoffs with a meh QB.

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The nicest part about "numbers can't tell you the whole story" is that you are then allowed to make up whatever you want and no one can possibly argue with you.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neil Lomax 82.68
Dave Kreig 81.50
Randall Cunningham 81.47
Boomer Esiason 81.06
Warren Moon 80.90


or if you prefer a more modern example:

Daunte Culpepper 90.75
Chad Pennington 89.32
Tom Brady 88.36

There is simply no way get around the fact that passer rating doesn't come close to getting a full view of QB impact. No matter how many times someone like Kurt Warner holds the ball way too long, gets sacked and fumbles, it will never tarnish his passer rating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, overall, just disputing the use of Unitas/Blake.

Edit: Chad Pennington was one of the best QBs in the league before his arm got shredded to bits, and the same with Daunte before he only had one leg. Brady never really flourished for a couple years. Obviously now Brady is far better than those guys, but I think you'll find that both Culpepper and Pennington had years where they were far better than Brady.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pennington is still putting up big passer ratings. He is sitting at 121 right now. You don't need the big arm to do it.

Culpepper gets credit for his arm, but passer rating doesn't care at all that he is one of the the most prolific fumblers in NFL history. Kreig also gets a pass in this area.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also doesn't give Culpepper credit for 2500 rushing yards and 30 rushing TDs over his career, which ameliorates some of the hurt of those fumbles (of which only 34 have been lost over his career, so 30 rushing TD's and 34 lost fumbles, not exactly a wash but I doubt there are any QBs that have more rushing TDs than fumbles).

FWIW if you add in his rushing TDs and add in his fumbles as INTs and plug it into the QBR forumla you get 89.2 Not that this isn't obviously flawed but just to give some idea.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Neil Lomax 82.68
Dave Kreig 81.50
Randall Cunningham 81.47
Boomer Esiason 81.06
Warren Moon 80.90


or if you prefer a more modern example:

Daunte Culpepper 90.75
Chad Pennington 89.32
Tom Brady 88.36

There is simply no way get around the fact that passer rating doesn't come close to getting a full view of QB impact. No matter how many times someone like Kurt Warner holds the ball way too long, gets sacked and fumbles, it will never tarnish his passer rating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, overall, just disputing the use of Unitas/Blake.

Edit: Chad Pennington was one of the best QBs in the league before his arm got shredded to bits, and the same with Daunte before he only had one leg. Brady never really flourished for a couple years. Obviously now Brady is far better than those guys, but I think you'll find that both Culpepper and Pennington had years where they were far better than Brady.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pennington is still putting up big passer ratings. He is sitting at 121 right now. You don't need the big arm to do it.

Culpepper gets credit for his arm, but passer rating doesn't care at all that he is one of the the most prolific fumblers in NFL history. Kreig also gets a pass in this area.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also doesn't give Culpepper credit for 2500 rushing yards and 30 rushing TDs over his career, which ameliorates some of the hurt of those fumbles (of which only 34 have been lost over his career, so 30 rushing TD's and 34 lost fumbles, not exactly a wash but I doubt there are any QBs that have more rushing TDs than fumbles).

FWIW if you add in his rushing TDs and add in his fumbles as INTs and plug it into the QBR forumla you get 89.2 Not that this isn't obviously flawed but just to give some idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before we go any further with fumbles, it has to be pointed out that QBs take the statistical blame for all exchange fumbles. Culpepper isn't solely responsible for all his fumbles but every other QB also gets the same shaft when their Center or RB botches a snap or handoff. Culpepper is just off the charts, he has almost a 1:1 ratio of fumbles to games played.

As far as rushing TDs/fumbles lost, Peyton Manning has 13 career rushing TDs and 15 career fumbles lost. Its just another of the million little things that makes Manning so great.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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He'll probably be starting for the Bears again before week 8.

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I'd take this bet.

Here's my post from
Chicago Bears 2007 Official Thread.
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Stat Griese Grossman
Completion percentage: 63.0% 54.2%
Yards/attempt: 7.0 6.5
TD/Int ratio: 104/80 28/32
QB rating: 84.5 69.3

Possible reasons why we shouldn't bench Grossman in favor of Griese and why they are insanely idiotic:[*]Point) Grossman's our qb of the future, Griese doesn't have one.[*]Counterpoint) Griese is only 32. At 32, an NFL qb could have several years left in the tank. Who here would rather have a terrible young qb than even a mediocre old one? The future doesn't matter anyway when our present defense and special teams (last night aside) are so good.
[*]Point) Those stats are crap because Griese had a better supporting cast on other teams.[*]Counterpoint) Receiverwise, who'd he have? Rod Smith in Denver? Chris Chambers in Miami? We still have several Pro Bowlers on offense. And even if it's true and Grossman has less support, does it make the difference in the stats above?
[*]Point) Obv Lovie sees both of them practice on a daily basis; he knows things we don't.[*]Counterpoint) Then what the hell's the point of posting on a forum anyway? Besides, it's what happens in a game that matters, not a practice. See the stats above.
[*]Point) Griese's numbers/Griese himself are too old. We'd need current numbers for a proper comparison.[*]Counterpoint) Well we don't have current numbers on Griese because he's not currently playing. Let's change that. If we go back to the past three seasons though, ('04-'06 23 games for Griese altogether,) he has a 67.0% completion percentage, 7.4 yards/attempt, and a 28/21 ratio. He's not as athletic as he was five years ago I'm sure, but then again he has five years more experience.
[*]Point) There's more to being a qb than putting up good numbers. Leadership, for instance.[*]Counterpoint) Yeah, Grossman's doing a super job leading the offense into the toilet. Mad props, yo.

Conclusion: Grossman clearly isn't the only problem on this team. But I'm getting really tired of people saying that Griese won't be any better.

[/ QUOTE ]
Anyone who's claiming that Grossman is a better option than Griese is wrong. Anyone claiming that Orton is a better option than Griese is... well I still think wrong but I can at least see the point. Grossman is currently the #2 qb, which means even if Griese is injured we won't get a chance to see whether Orton has improved over the past two years. I think that's a mistake.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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Your the Green Bay Packers...3-0 average D, Farve looks great, good WRs, dismal to below average o-line. no running game

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I don't think he is a 2nd round pick better than their current RB.

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Turner doesn't have to be that good to make it worthwhile for the Packers. However, if memory serves, the Charges tendered Turner as an RFA for big enough money such that a team would have to give them a 1 and 3 if they signed him. No way the Charges take a 2 now for him after that.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

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[ QUOTE ]


Career QB rating of 84.5, 104-80 TD-to-INT ratio, 204.5 yards per game average, 63.0% completion percentage


What exactly is so bad about him?


Heres a few QBs simlilar to him for a comparison:

Drew Brees: 80.0 QB rating, 107-71 TD/INT, 223.6 yards per game.

Steve McNair: 83.2 QB rating, 173-116 TD/INT, 194.9 yards per game

Phil Simms: 78.5 QB rating, 199-157 TD/INT, 204.0 yards per game

Troy Aikman: 81.6 QB rating, 165-141 TD/INT, 199.6 yards per game

Matt Hasselbeck: 85.5 QB rating, 119-74 TD/INT, 156.7 yards per game(note: Matt's ypg is unfairly brought down due to a lot of spot duty though)

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I wrote this last year when everybody was calling for griese over grossman.

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Brian Griese is terrible. Being a Dolphins fan, he ruined their 2003 season by himself. Fiedler got hurt and Griese started against a bad SD team and lit them up 20-29, 192 yards, 3 td. Wow this guy is good. Next game against Indy, takes 5 sacks, loses 2 fumbles but still passes effectively 18-29, 231 yards, 1 td, 0 int. Next game against Tennessee, takes 4 sacks, loses 2 fumbles, throws 3 int, 0td and is 15-27 for 131 yards. Next game against Baltimore, goes 13-32 for 126 yards and the Dolphins win 9-6. Next game against Washington, throws 2 int by half and gets replaced by Jay Fiedler.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Griese's inconsistent and maybe was on the sauce (I think he had a DUI in Denver). Something to consider IMO though is that however you rate a QB it's partly dependent on who that QB has around him. I think the Bears actually have talent at the skill positions (even Benson but getting rid of Jones was a bad move IMO) so Griese should have some weapons to go to. What I saw of Rex was that he wasn't getting the ball to his receivers on out patterns that well as I saw him throw short to Muhammed a few times in the Cowboys game. Rex has problems dealing with a pass rush and doesn't move that well in the pocket IMO. Defenses seem to be able to confuse Rex easily too. FWIW I think the Bears will respond positively to this change and I'm not a Bears fan either.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

no.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
John Elway kinda sucked for most of his career, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was only the winningest QB in history until this year, often carrying teams on his back that would've gone 4-12 without him. Yep, he sucked.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Elway myth has grown over the years. JOA's view is a lot closer to the truth than you are giving it credit for.

From 88-92 he had 73tds and 80 INTs. The idea that he always carried bad teams on his back until TD got there is fairly dubious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me just say on the Elway hijack: I watched most of Elway's career and I did not like the Broncos at all.

He was incredibly awesome and to say he "kinda sucked" before Davis got there is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

Elway obviously improved after the 1992 season.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
John Elway kinda sucked for most of his career, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

He was only the winningest QB in history until this year, often carrying teams on his back that would've gone 4-12 without him. Yep, he sucked.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Elway myth has grown over the years. JOA's view is a lot closer to the truth than you are giving it credit for.

From 88-92 he had 73tds and 80 INTs. The idea that he always carried bad teams on his back until TD got there is fairly dubious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me just say on the Elway hijack: I watched most of Elway's career and I did not like the Broncos at all.

He was incredibly awesome and to say he "kinda sucked" before Davis got there is one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

[/ QUOTE ]

He certainly never sucked against the Chiefs. More like fisted. With no lube.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your the Green Bay Packers...3-0 average D, Farve looks great, good WRs, dismal to below average o-line. no running game

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think he is a 2nd round pick better than their current RB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Turner doesn't have to be that good to make it worthwhile for the Packers. However, if memory serves, the Charges tendered Turner as an RFA for big enough money such that a team would have to give them a 1 and 3 if they signed him. No way the Charges take a 2 now for him after that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am overestimating the #2 pick. In my opinion the NFL runs on young legs more than any other sport. You need some key players that you can keep together for a while, and you fill the rest of the team year after year with young legs (hoping you get a key player every now and then out of the group). Botching or surrendering 1-4 picks can destroy you.

I think Turner is a very solid back, but I think he is not good enough to be hard to find a replacement. Maybe a 2 is a good price. I think its slightly too much but wtf do I know. I sure wouldn't give a 1 and a 3 though!

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

[ QUOTE ]
The nicest part about "numbers can't tell you the whole story" is that you are then allowed to make up whatever you want and no one can possibly argue with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think you are probably going to have trouble finding people who are old enough to remember watching Elway's whole career and think he's overrated. I'm sure you're not suggesting that numbers DO tell the whole story. Football isn't baseball.

In '93 and '94, with Reeves gone and before Mike Shanahan and Terrell Davis got there, Elway threw for 41 TDs with 20 picks.

I'm a Broncos fan so I'm biased of course, but I grew up during the Elway era and watched it all.

Re: Brian Griese to start next week
 

Even when Elway didn't always play the best, there was no better QB to have needing a game-winning drive late.

He could be having a horrible game. But get down to 3 minutes left, down by 6 - and it was like he would just wake up out of a fog and start flinging the ball all over the field with laser accuracy. You could see him perk up in his body language. Some QBs get scared in those spots, Elway got jacked-up. It almost seemed like he needed to create a challenge for himself. Like just playing against an NFL defense wasn't stimulating his juices enough. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]