Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]

this doesn't particularly bother me (i can dish it out much better than the chumps in ATF anyway). if this site ever made a major move to say 'mods can't be mean like regular posters,' i would respond by saying that mods and admins should do more to defend each other from unreasonable attack if they want that to be realistic. and if that was a direction the site wanted to go i would fall in line with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, I would fully be in favor of this.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

this doesn't particularly bother me (i can dish it out much better than the chumps in ATF anyway). if this site ever made a major move to say 'mods can't be mean like regular posters,' i would respond by saying that mods and admins should do more to defend each other from unreasonable attack if they want that to be realistic. and if that was a direction the site wanted to go i would fall in line with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, I would fully be in favor of this.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd really hate for a PM from one certified loon (Kaj) to change the tone of the forums. Particularly since I'm guessing Mason rarely checks most forums and I'm afraid he may take it at face value. If a policy were to be implemented I'd prefer it not to be as a result of something started by a guy the forums are better of without anyway.

Also, LOL at me being in his PM. I mess with people for fun but I don't think I directly insult them. I mean unless of course they deserve it LDO, but I see way more cutting comments from many other mods on this site unrelated to modding issues.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dibs,

"The problem with the googletard rule is that I'm not sure what evil we're saving 2p2 from with it."

Like many individual forum rules, it serves to facilitate a better experience for the users based on the forum goals as determined by the moderators.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, this is why I prefer forums where the rule is "whatever el diablo thinks is a good thread", rather than "lets pretend the rules are these, when the rule in reality is 'whatever NT thinks is a good thread' "

at least in one case you admit the decision is a subjective one so there can't really be any arguing about it... and if you don't like it, leave. in the other, it's "fake objectivity" which sets a completely different tone.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

Also, Mat

if you want me to change the tone of ATF and lay down the law there and make it a "srs biz" forum, i can do that. pm me if interested. though i think there are a lot of people (several of them moderators) who like the atmosphere there. anyway, let me know.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]


Also, LOL at me being in his PM. I mess with people for fun but I don't think I directly insult them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seeing your name in there was definitely a "One of these things is not like the other" moment.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Mat

if you want me to change the tone of ATF and lay down the law there and make it a "srs biz" forum, i can do that. pm me if interested.

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF??????

Besides, the tone in ATF is exactly as Mat likes it, he even posts from time to time that he views the forum as his entertainment, within reason. That's why as an historically paranoid individual this whole iron as mod thing freaks me out, even though I like the guy.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Also, LOL at me being in his PM. I mess with people for fun but I don't think I directly insult them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seeing your name in there was definitely a "One of these things is not like the other" moment.

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought stabn was more "not like the others" than he was [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, Mat

if you want me to change the tone of ATF and lay down the law there and make it a "srs biz" forum, i can do that. pm me if interested.

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF??????

Besides, the tone in ATF is exactly as Mat likes it, he even posts from time to time that he views the forum as his entertainment, within reason. That's why as an historically paranoid individual this whole iron as mod thing freaks me out, even though I like the guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

its an offer. decision is up to mat. like i said i see both sides.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

durron,

Do you not like the tone in ATF? Do you consider it detrimental to the site as a whole? Slightly OT, but do you also hate freedom, kittens, and ice cream?

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dibs,

"The problem with the googletard rule is that I'm not sure what evil we're saving 2p2 from with it."

Like many individual forum rules, it serves to facilitate a better experience for the users based on the forum goals as determined by the moderators.

[/ QUOTE ]

However, this is why I prefer forums where the rule is "whatever el diablo thinks is a good thread", rather than "lets pretend the rules are these, when the rule in reality is 'whatever NT thinks is a good thread' "

at least in one case you admit the decision is a subjective one so there can't really be any arguing about it... and if you don't like it, leave. in the other, it's "fake objectivity" which sets a completely different tone.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, you're totally right dude.

[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to OOT.

This forum is moderated in a harsh and subjective manner by a cruel bastard who doesn’t like you. Posters who violate the rules are likely to have their threads locked or deleted and find their accounts suspended or banned. If this is not your cup of tea, try these other 2+2 forums:

[/ QUOTE ]

Diablo, I call on you to remove this veil of false objectivity from your forum and get with the program.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to OOT.

This forum is moderated in a harsh and subjective manner by a cruel bastard who doesn’t like you. Posters who violate the rules are likely to have their threads locked or deleted and find their accounts suspended or banned. If this is not your cup of tea, try these other 2+2 forums:

[/ QUOTE ]

Diablo, I call on you to remove this veil of false objectivity from your forum and get with the program.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe you should point this out to people who complain that you locked their thread instead of trying to explain that it's a googletard all the time

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
durron,

Do you not like the tone in ATF?

[/ QUOTE ]

are you asking durron597 the poster or durron597 the moderator?

[ QUOTE ]
Do you consider it detrimental to the site as a whole?

[/ QUOTE ]

see above question

[ QUOTE ]
Slightly OT, but do you also hate freedom, kittens, and ice cream?

[/ QUOTE ]

ask a regular in either of my forums if i run those forums with an iron fist.

then ask a long time regular in STTF how i ran it when we first instituted thread labels

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

by the way

i just read the "discussion of mat's sticky" thread, and i saw a suggestion for ATF4L. i know it was a joke but... not a bad idea imho. modded by mike and tuq. i'll help iron in the real one.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, Mat

if you want me to change the tone of ATF and lay down the law there and make it a "srs biz" forum, i can do that. pm me if interested.

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF??????

Besides, the tone in ATF is exactly as Mat likes it, he even posts from time to time that he views the forum as his entertainment, within reason. That's why as an historically paranoid individual this whole iron as mod thing freaks me out, even though I like the guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

when did iron become ATF mod? totally missed that one.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]

maybe you should point this out to people who complain that you locked their thread instead of trying to explain that it's a googletard all the time

[/ QUOTE ]

whenever i lock a thread i explain it using principles outlined in the sticky. how i apply those principles is according to my own good judgment and experience. this is the same thing that diablo does when he moderates his forum.

if you want people to read the rules and attempt to make good posts, you have to give them more than 'because i said so.'

you know what, i am starting to change my mind. it might not just be the loose moderation of reject forums that causes users to make dumb criticisms without even understanding the rules or having any observations to go on.

it is probably because we have a bunch of mods who make dumb criticisms without even understanding the rules or having any observations to go on.

character reflects leadership or something like that amirite?

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

lol at durron lobbying to take over ATF and mod it in the complete opposite manner of one of mat's most trusted and popular mods.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

maybe you should point this out to people who complain that you locked their thread instead of trying to explain that it's a googletard all the time

[/ QUOTE ]

whenever i lock a thread i explain it using principles outlined in the sticky. how i apply those principles is according to my own good judgment and experience. this is the same thing that diablo does when he moderates his forum.

if you want people to read the rules and attempt to make good posts, you have to give them more than 'because i said so.'

you know what, i am starting to change my mind. it might not just be the loose moderation of reject forums that causes users to make dumb criticisms without even understanding the rules or having any observations to go on.

it is probably because we have a bunch of mods who make dumb criticisms without even understanding the rules or having any observations to go on.

character reflects leadership or something like that amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

you seem to think i don't understand this. i understand this completely. the problem is that too much of your userbase doesn't understand this.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...umber=12114181

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

ir's a pretty small fraction of the userbase that doesn't understand it, and the reason most of them don't understand it is that they never took the time to read the rules in the first place. you picked a pretty poor example since that's exactly what happened in that thread, and pretty much everyone but the OP knew it.

LOL at this thread turning into busybody mods attacking OOT again because they have no idea how it works

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol at durron lobbying to take over ATF and mod it in the complete opposite manner of one of mat's most trusted and popular mods.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am not "lobbying" for anything. if you actually paid attention to what i'm saying instead of what you assume i'm saying you would realize that.

i am offering mat a choice. if he likes the casual atmosphere there and doesn't want a major change he will say no, and i am ok with that. in fact i (speaking as durron the poster) prefer the current ATF to the old one as measured by entertainment value.

however, if mat wants an ATF where users post serious questions expecting serious answers, i am offering to help 2+2 provide that. (i'm speaking as durron the moderator now). that's why i thought having an ATF4L wouldn't be a bad idea - ATF for srs biz and ATF for people who want to post about 2+2 but also want a more relaxed and entertaining environment to do so

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

how is repeatedly encouraging mat to make you a mod of the forum not 'lobbying'?

i prefer the current ATF too, even with the drawbacks that i described above (basically allowing idiots to troll mods and create discord where it would not otherwise exist). it creates more traffic for the site, and more generally, i think with the type of user 2p2 is currently attracting, shutting down things like ATF and BBV would significantly hinder traffic.

which is why i think it's funny that you are lobbying to be a mod of it.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

Although it seems most people are happy with the current ATF, and despite the fact that more fora are not necessarily what we need, it might be a good idea to have another place that was strictly SRS BIZ for the site. Maybe not, maybe mod discussion is that place. All I'm saying is I used to read ATF in the first month of its existence when it was all useful info, and now I hardly ever visit.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Although it seems most people are happy with the current ATF, and despite the fact that more fora are not necessarily what we need, it might be a good idea to have another place that was strictly SRS BIZ for the site. Maybe not, maybe mod discussion is that place. All I'm saying is I used to read ATF in the first month of its existence when it was all useful info, and now I hardly ever visit.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]

however, if mat wants an ATF where users post serious questions expecting serious answers, i am offering to help 2+2 provide that. (i'm speaking as durron the moderator now). that's why i thought having an ATF4L wouldn't be a bad idea - ATF for srs biz and ATF for people who want to post about 2+2 but also want a more relaxed and entertaining environment to do so

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see why we can't achieve both; answers to serious questions and the casual atmosphere.

To be honest, I've really enjoyed ATF in the last week. It's been completely entertaining. Yet, I also see the need to give posters with questions serious replies.

So, answer the question, then let the silliness run wild, (hopefully without personal attacks on the OP - regulars have enough venom to beat up on each other anyway.) Starting a ABT4L seems unnecessary.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

this doesn't particularly bother me (i can dish it out much better than the chumps in ATF anyway). if this site ever made a major move to say 'mods can't be mean like regular posters,' i would respond by saying that mods and admins should do more to defend each other from unreasonable attack if they want that to be realistic. and if that was a direction the site wanted to go i would fall in line with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, I would fully be in favor of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in agreement with this also.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
To be fair, I'm not sure that the Books & Publications forum is another BBV4L ready to break out were it not for your leading by example. It's probably only slightly more chaotic than the Golf forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also true. Though I don't credit myself with it being a good forum. I credit the quality of the members that post there. I have to do very little to keep it in line. All I'm saying is that I believe the "polices" I have in place there, and the way I conduct myself on these forums is in a way that reflects positively on 2+2. If looking for a new direction to take I have some things that have worked well for me. I may be able to provide some helpful ideas.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

So I slowplayed a flopped nut straight and let a guy backdoor a nut flush on me tonight in our home game (to be fair, I did push on the turn but I was shortstacked so he had odds to call), so here I am, first out of the donkament.

durron,

"i am offering mat a choice. if he likes the casual atmosphere there and doesn't want a major change he will say no, and i am ok with that."

He totally likes the atmosphere and has said so many times. The current semi-carnival ATF atmosphere has existed certainly for most of this year, possibly for some of last year. If Mat objected to it certainly he would have taken action by now (this aside from the comments where he says that he likes to be entertained by that forum). If I thought my posts in that forum were annoying or created extra work for Mike Haven or Mat I wouldn't make them. As it stands it's morphed into one of the smartest, most enjoyable of the 2+2 forums, as bizarre as that may seem.

Anyway, I do think NT!'s whole googletarding thing is a bit much. I wish we would stop losing sight of 2+2 as a community. When chesspain or another respected poster posts about where to go and what to do in a certain city, he's relying on the community's knowledge to help him out. It's the community that brings people back to this site; I doubt this whole "googletarding" stuff does nearly to the same extent.

Also, this whole "post it in the Travel forum" thing is crap. Very few people go there. If you're looking for certain ideas on how to handle certain issues in certain countries then I guess it's fine, but if your thing is "having dinner tonight in NYC, suggestions?" then the five people that read that forum won't help you out nearly as quickly as the 160 average readers that are on OOT will.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, I do think NT!'s whole googletarding thing is a bit much. I wish we would stop losing sight of 2+2 as a community. When chesspain or another respected poster posts about where to go and what to do in a certain city, he's relying on the community's knowledge to help him out. It's the community that brings people back to this site; I doubt this whole "googletarding" stuff does nearly to the same extent.

Also, this whole "post it in the Travel forum" thing is crap. Very few people go there. If you're looking for certain ideas on how to handle certain issues in certain countries then I guess it's fine, but if your thing is "having dinner tonight in NYC, suggestions?" then the five people that read that forum won't help you out nearly as quickly as the 160 average readers that are on OOT will.


[/ QUOTE ]

if chesspain ever posted in OOT other than to nit up the occasional thread i might be worried about keeping him coming back.

it's not that you're not allowed to make posts looking for advice or asking for help. i have let many such threads live in the last month. there are explicit instructions in the sticky about how to do it. it involves doing some of the legwork yourself and at least trying to ask a question that others will be interested in.

this is a topic which i have taken the time to address in great detail in the sticky, which apparently tuq didn't bother to read either. i am not hearing any outcry from OOT posters over googletarding - i am hearing it from people who wander into the forum having never posted there, and i am hearing it from mods who have nothing better to do than complain.

i don't even lock every OOT thread that involves googletarding. it involves discretion and judgment like everything else.

EDIT: and sending people to the travel forum was not my idea, i always said nobody posts there. i was asked to help give the smaller forums a chance to thrive by redirecting traffic there, and i have. so blame that one on all the loudmouth busybodies who tried to tell me how to run OOT last time around.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Although it seems most people are happy with the current ATF, and despite the fact that more fora are not necessarily what we need, it might be a good idea to have another place that was strictly SRS BIZ for the site. Maybe not, maybe mod discussion is that place. All I'm saying is I used to read ATF in the first month of its existence when it was all useful info, and now I hardly ever visit.

[/ QUOTE ]


that's kind of a shame. it's been really good lately!


also,

[ QUOTE ]
Loc: north american scum

[/ QUOTE ]


are you supposed to be my nemesis from the western hemisphere?

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
deac,

To be fair, I'm not sure that the Books & Publications forum is another BBV4L ready to break out were it not for your leading by example. It's probably only slightly more chaotic than the Golf forum.

[/ QUOTE ]


I try to make it chaotic as possible, but there's only so much I can do, mang.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is a topic which i have taken the time to address in great detail in the sticky, which apparently tuq didn't bother to read either.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wrong, I even cruised through the (sadly MS Paint-free) update this week.

I just think the best forums are those in which people congregate and consider it a community. While there is definitely something that can be called "googletarding", I hardly think a long-time respected poster asking a busy forum about restaurant recommendations or whatever chesspain did fits the mold. And yes, I realize your "job" is harder than most of ours, save possibly the BBV4L crew. It shouldn't mean it's immune to discussion.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

tuq,

this is by no means something that is beyond discussion.

however, this particular issue has been discussed many, many times, and the consensus among OOT regulars and mods is that if people want to come to OOT for help, they need to at least meet us halfway. especially when, as i said, there are many existing threads on this topic, there is a whole forum where people are instructed to post on this topic, and there is a long thread about NYC eateries in another forum as well.

sorry but this is something where there is broad agreement among OOT posters and mods. it's been discussed ad nauseum. it's pretty ridiculous that it keeps coming up over and over again when it has been made very clear that there are both ways for people to get around this issue, and also alternate venues where such questions can be posed.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

Eurotrash,

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Loc: north american scum

[/ QUOTE ]


are you supposed to be my nemesis from the western hemisphere?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

By the way, this reminds me of a good example of two awesome songs I can't choose between:

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? I don't get it.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno if we want to start holding mods to a higher posting standard,

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed the point. The compliant was that the mods weren't being held to the SAME standards as other posters when it comes to non-modding posts. He has a valid point, whether the reds want to do anything about it is their call.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge
everybody must go to the lounge

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm feeling very sleeeeepppppyyyy...

Must go to Lounge
Must go to Lounge

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

just to update, this user of course didn't go anywhere and is back to trolling politics and ATF like always.

if only he had made a farewell post in OOT, it would be enforceable.

all these people getting worked up over a stupid pathological troll saying that mods are mean to him

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
just to update, this user of course didn't go anywhere and is back to trolling politics and ATF like always.

if only he had made a farewell post in OOT, it would be enforceable.

all these people getting worked up over a stupid pathological troll saying that mods are mean to him

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, He's still around.

Disaster averted, plz to be locking thread.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno if we want to start holding mods to a higher posting standard, but it would be nice if someone handled the srs biz in ATF if I'm away or don't know the answer. I assume this PM is related to Mat's new ATF sticky.

I think one reason for the idea that "Mods gang up on users" in ATF is the don't criticize other mods rule. If a user criticizes a mod in ATF, it is basically against the rules to take the user's side. Since mods are a high percentage of posters in ATF, this can lead to a distorted view about the wisdom of a moderating decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

Iron, I'm curious why you pm'd Kaj, a known troll, the contents of this thread in the mod forum? Or am I wrong and he is just misrepresenting that in his posts in ATF? If Mat wanted to make Kaj aware of what he had said and what others had said, wouldn't it have been more appropriate for him to have PM'd Kaj back, rather than you?

Yours in Confusion,
--jman220

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

His post was accurate. The reason I PMed him was that I was hoping he would give 2+2 and the Politics forum another try. Kaj is not a troll, his posts in Politics and ATF at least (I don't read his contributions in other forums) are generally intelligent and respectful and I wanted him to resume posting.

Also, I felt he deserved to know what was happening, given that he apparently instigated some soul searching on Mat's part.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
His post was accurate. The reason I PMed him was that I was hoping he would give 2+2 and the Politics forum another try. Kaj is not a troll, his posts in Politics and ATF at least (I don't read his contributions in other forums) are generally intelligent and respectful and I wanted him to resume posting.

As for my blabbing what Mat posted, guilty as charged.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just curious why you thought it would be more appropriate for you to pm him, rather than, say, telling Mat maybe he should. Don't you think it makes it look unprofessional that instead of an Admin responding to his concerns, it was merely another mod who was essentially just "leaking" him information? Is there a reason you didn't at the very least, post in the mod forum first asking what other mods and the admins thought of this before unilaterally deciding to do that?