Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
I love my plan (such as it is) and genuinely am interested if anybody here would like to play at a site such as I have described.

So far, apparently, nobody from here would be joining us.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be there Tuff. And I expect that playing one table of 10/20 6-max on such a site would be all I need to make a living.

Everybody else in online poker would be there too, once it was off the ground. Don't let the message board haters get to you, holmes.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt support a site that forces me to only play one table, especially considering its only because the founder can't multitable so is pushing his bias on everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely amazing.

To use a fish analogy. There are several lakes in the region, and lots of fisherman. All of the lakes except one are suffering severely from over fishing. All the fisherman have dozens of poles, some nets, and even the odd stick of dynamite.

There is one lake that does not suffer from over fishing. There are no fisherman allowed on it. It is surrounded by a high fence with large quantities of barbed wire. In the early morning, the water is literally roiling with the fish jumping.

One day the keeper of the pristine lake offered some access to the lake. But the fisherman could only use a single pole with a single baited hook. Using the lake was free so long as those conditions were met. The fisherman could fish as long as he wanted, there was no limit.

But the fisherman that frequented the other lakes were incensed. How dare they not be allowed onto to the new lake without their multiple poles, nets, fishfinders, and, in a few cases, their dynamite.

They screamed and cursed and vowed to NEVER set foot onto the new lake.

Oh well.., They wouldn't be missed by those who understood that, to keep a lake well stocked, you must practice restraint, keep greed in check, and not take more from the lake than it can withstand.

So, our enlightened friends spent their days fishing at a leisurely pace, catching and keeping ample quantities of fish, eating well, and getting on with the rest of their lives.

Their compatriots, on the other hand, were spending their days and nights trolling, dragging nets, and blowing up the water in an ever more frenetic attempt to catch the last fish available.

The end.

Tuff [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

And, by the way, I agree that starting this thread then holding out on your ideas is kind of lame-o.

How about this. Set up the card room as a non-profit. Hire an experienced and successful non-profit fundraiser. I think money would rain down into such a non-profit from all the wealthy people in the US who love poker.

Charge a membership fee: $25 annually, with prizes and levels and stuff if you give more, like all non-profits. I.e. 'World Champion' level giving of $50,000 or more gets you an entry to the WSOP and all the prizes from lower levels.

You would probably have to black-list states where non-raked home games are illegal, like my own backward-ass NC.

Sounds feasible to me. Surely a professional approach to the above would net enough money to get it off the ground. It might take a few years of fund raising and development before the games go online.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]

.
........ but I really don't see how this could work. I think you are underestimating the startup costs and the cost of drawing players to the site, where are those dollars coming from? Then of course you have all the other operational expenses that come with running a functional poker site. I look forward to hearing why anyone would want to start such a site.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am really not sure how much it would cost to support such a site as I have outlined.

Does anybody have any idea how much it costs to run a site? That is, the direct costs of software leasing (buying?), running a server farm, and security? Customer support would be minimal. You help yourself. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I have been working on a round number of $100,000 a month, $1.2 million a year. I have no clue if the is reasonable or not.

Is anybody in the know here?

Seriously.

Tuff

PS:

This whole idea was reborn in my head by the "The Rake is Too Much" thread. Seems some folks think it only takes pennies to run a table. Are they correct? If so we are definitely in business.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt support a site that forces me to only play one table, especially considering its only because the founder can't multitable so is pushing his bias on everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely amazing.

To use a fish analogy. There are several lakes in the region, and lots of fisherman. All of the lakes except one are suffering severely from over fishing. All the fisherman have dozens of poles, some nets, and even the odd stick of dynamite.

There is one lake that does not suffer from over fishing. There are no fisherman allowed on it. It is surrounded by a high fence with large quantities of barbed wire. In the early morning, the water is literally roiling with the fish jumping.

One day the keeper of the pristine lake offered some access to the lake. But the fisherman could only use a single pole with a single baited hook. Using the lake was free so long as those conditions were met. The fisherman could fish as long as he wanted, there was no limit.

But the fisherman that frequented the other lakes were incensed. How dare they not be allowed onto to the new lake without their multiple poles, nets, fishfinders, and, in a few cases, their dynamite.

They screamed and cursed and vowed to NEVER set foot onto the new lake.

Oh well.., They wouldn't be missed by those who understood that, to keep a lake well stocked, you must practice restraint, keep greed in check, and not take more from the lake than it can withstand.

So, our enlightened friends spent their days fishing at a leisurely pace, catching and keeping ample quantities of fish, eating well, and getting on with the rest of their lives.

Their compatriots, on the other hand, were spending their days and nights trolling, dragging nets, and blowing up the water in an ever more frenetic attempt to catch the last fish available.

The end.

Tuff [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Your analogy misses in a couple of spots.

First, the fisherman would still figure to catch more fish in the lake with less fish where he could use all of his gear. He may think it's silly to have such a rule in that one particular lake, but so be it. I don't think he would be incensed. But he would have no incentive to leave the lakes he was currently fishing in.

Secondly, he could fish in BOTH LAKES at the SAME TIME, since these are "virtual" lakes on the internets. I'd be happy to play one single table on your site while playing my normal 20-24 at Stars.

Finally, if the fisherman has a large family, or a business, that he is fishing for, he simply won't be able to maintain with a single pole.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

I this idea, and the lake analogy. I would play there. Frankly, I think multi-tabling and HUD-play, etc. basically destroy the quality of the games on the major sites, but they don't seem to be hurting for business, despite that. I just play elsewhere, for the most part, and do much better. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I do think you have a bit of an attitude, so if you are going to persuade people to get behind your idea, you need to work on your sales skills.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Good points all.


[ QUOTE ]

.
.

Your analogy misses in a couple of spots.

First, the fisherman would still figure to catch more fish in the lake with less fish where he could use all of his gear.
.
I think this is going to be less and less true as more fisherman chase fewer fish. They are mostly going to be chasing each other.
.
He may think it's silly to have such a rule in that one particular lake, but so be it. I don't think he would be incensed. But he would have no incentive to leave the lakes he was currently fishing in.

Secondly, he could fish in BOTH LAKES at the SAME TIME, since these are "virtual" lakes on the internets. I'd be happy to play one single table on your site while playing my normal 20-24 at Stars.
.
.
As I stated earlier, feel free. That doesn't bother the model at all. My personal preferance is to have a short clock so the action doesn't slow down, but otherwise, go for it.
.
.

Finally, if the fisherman has a large family, or a business, that he is fishing for, he simply won't be able to maintain with a single pole.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tuff

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]

.
.
I do think you have a bit of an attitude, so if you are going to persuade people to get behind your idea, you need to work on your sales skills.

[/ QUOTE ]

ME..?? an attitude? Come now, say it ain't so.

Tuff

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

so basically you want a zero rake pacific poker of the early 2000's.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

tuff,

come on, what's the catch?

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is going to be less and less true as more fisherman chase fewer fish. They are mostly going to be chasing each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what makes you think all of the fish are going to swim to your lake? (I'm sure some will) The other lakes will still have fish.

Keep in mind that the huge majority of fish don't really know that they are fish at all.

I think the short clock to act is a great idea.

But I also think that you might actually be hurting your business by not allowing multi-tabling.

Remember, even the fish like to play multiple tables. One table gets extremely boring for anybody.

Besides that, if this idea were to work, other companies would surely "jump on it" and open similar sites. (I don't think it's possible to get a patent on something like this). When these similar sites allow multi-tabling, where do you think all of the players are going to go? And where the players go, the advertisers follow of course. This might be an issue that you could have to deal with in due time (along with litigation, etc.)

But altogether, I think it would take considerable time to get something like this going. And by the time that were to happen, we will likely already have some sort of regulated online poker in the United States (I'm sure you've been following the legislation forum). So there's a chance your efforts might be for nothing in the end. Of course you could still have your site regardless, but at that point you'll have a bunch of taxes to pay and you'll be competing against Harrah's and the like. Good luck.

'boy

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

It may only take pennys to run a table but it takes a major investment to create the table & get players sitting around it.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, even the fish like to play multiple tables. One table gets extremely boring for anybody.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you're stupid. Personally, I would prefer playing a half-table, but I've tried making suggestions to PS and FTP, but they won't budge. So, he, what can I do.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Remember, even the fish like to play multiple tables. One table gets extremely boring for anybody.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you're stupid. Personally, I would prefer playing a half-table, but I've tried making suggestions to PS and FTP, but they won't budge. So, he, what can I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

?

PokerStars has a half table option. Actually, it's more like 2/3 table.

They also now have a 2/9 table option.

Enjoy!

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is going to be less and less true as more fisherman chase fewer fish. They are mostly going to be chasing each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, what makes you think all of the fish are going to swim to your lake? (I'm sure some will) The other lakes will still have fish.
.
.
Being first to market, and, for a while at least, being the only US facing legitimate, easily funded poker site is one crucial key to success. The fish will be here because they can't easily be anywhere else. .
.


Keep in mind that the huge majority of fish don't really know that they are fish at all.
.
.
I don't? .
.

I think the short clock to act is a great idea.

But I also think that you might actually be hurting your business by not allowing multi-tabling.
.
.
But, the question is, am I hurting the lake?
.
.

Remember, even the fish like to play multiple tables. One table gets extremely boring for anybody.

Besides that, if this idea were to work, other companies would surely "jump on it" and open similar sites. (I don't think it's possible to get a patent on something like this).
.
.

Somehow, I don't think there is going to be great competition to open a business that has no possibility of profitability, at least in the conventional sense.
.
.

When these similar sites allow multi-tabling, where do you think all of the players are going to go? And where the players go, the advertisers follow of course. This might be an issue that you could have to deal with in due time (along with litigation, etc.)
.
.
Let's think about the advertising model for a minute. Please, somebody open up a zero rake site supported by advertising. I will be the first in and I promise to play under the name "Tuff Fish"


Would an advertiser want their ad seen seven times by one player or seen once by seven players. And by once, I mean the ad is persistant during the poker session. The advertiser will probably prefer that there be fewer tables but with each seat held by a unique individual player.

However, I am sure such a site would pay very close attention to details such as this and run the site appropriately. They will also be keenly interested in keeping the "lake" healthy.
.
.


.
.

But altogether, I think it would take considerable time to get something like this going.
.
.
I hope not too much time.
.
.

And by the time that were to happen, we will likely already have some sort of regulated online poker in the United States (I'm sure you've been following the legislation forum). So there's a chance your efforts might be for nothing in the end. Of course you could still have your site regardless, but at that point you'll have a bunch of taxes to pay and you'll be competing against Harrah's and the like. Good luck.

'boy

[/ QUOTE ]

If Harrah's and others beat me to it, my work is done.

Tuff

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Scene: Some Boardroom in New York.

"So, how is it, again, that we make money, Johnson?"
"We don't. Its revolutionary."
"And we may get sued or jailed by DOJ?"
"Yep."
"But no one can multitable. Ever."
"what's that?"
"Where a nit plays more than one table. At Pokerstars, some nits play like 20 tables at a time."
"And how do they make money at Pokerstars?"
"They charge rake."
"And we won't?"
"Exactly."
"And at Pokerstars, some players play 20 tables at a time, paying rake on all 20 tables at once?"
"Yeah, and they play all day so unimaginatively..."
"All DAY?"
'Well, 24/7, really, Pokerstars never shuts down... but you are missing the point...."
"Is PokerStars for Sale, Johnson?"

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

From an earlier post:

[ QUOTE ]
There is a catch, but not an onerous one. And, more importantly, not a legal one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the legality of ads has not been in dispute, this sounds quite bad. So out of thin air, let me pull some speculation.

Minimum deposit with a timelimit on complete withdrawal. Allow players to only withdraw what they have won until timelimit is met; after that, no restrictions. In the meantime, site uses the players' money to invest in short-term, low-to-mediocre-risk bonds. Assets just need to be in easily liquidated form, so withdraws and expenses can be met.

Wouldn't that be effectively banking?

The only catch here is that the money deposited to such a site would be involved in a simple zero-sum game. Money just moves between players, and limited withdrawals ensure that the investment capital remains big enough. So, as long as the profit from investments is enough for all operational costs, they could cover for all the money in players' accounts.

This is pure speculation, remember. I have no idea how the site would actually cover its costs. But - since the ads were supposedly not the only source of income, this might be the most straightforward approach.

And I shiver at the thought.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Tuff: I would play there.

That is all.

P.S. Despite what a lot of these 2+2ers say, they would at least try the site out as well. Most, like me, would just play one at your rake free site and then the rest of the tables at Stars or FT.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

tuff fish,

everything i have suspected about you is true.

you are a [censored] idiot.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
tuff fish,

everything i have suspected about you is true.

you are a [censored] idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yep, you are a worse buisness man then you are a poker player. Just because you realised there are nits out there that multitable, doesn't change the fact that many, many fish go on without realising this and we will always take money from people like you.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

What you have said so far as I can tell is:
I have a great idea! I will not tell you my Idea. Do you like my idea?

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tuff fish,

everything i have suspected about you is true.

you are a [censored] idiot.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yep, you are a worse buisness man then you are a poker player. Just because you realised there are nits out there that multitable, doesn't change the fact that many, many fish go on without realising this and we will always take money from people like you.

[/ QUOTE ]

So nice of you to share your thoughts.

We will not miss your presence in the least on my great new site.

Did you miss the part that my site is where the fish will be since it is not easy for them to be elsewhere?

Tuff << likes ruffling a few feathers now and again.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
What you have said so far as I can tell is:
I have a great idea! I will not tell you my Idea. Do you like my idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
What you have said so far as I can tell is:
I have a great idea! I will not tell you my Idea. Do you like my idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

what I have said is that I have an idea of a zero rake site where players do not pay a rake, a time charge, a membership fee, or anything else.

The condition for such a site to exist is that players may only play at one table at a time, like real poker, which this internet "homegame" is supposed to emulate, indeed, possibly, would have to emulate, since that is the premise of the site.

I have asked that if such a site were to magically appear, who would be excited. So far most of you have said "a pox on a zero rake site, we prefer to grind it out on our 20 tables with all the other 20 table grinders on FTP and Stars."

More properly asked, my question should be, who thinks that bringing a "homegame" site into existance would be worth an effort? Who thinks that they would profit sufficiently from the fishy environment to make a sacrifice to see it come about?

How much money? Dunno

How much effort? Some

How much time? We don't have much time.

I need some volunteers for a secret enterprise. I will tell you what the mission is after we are airborne. Who is in? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Tuff

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can you be so old and still so stupid? This is the dumbest idea I've ever heard, please start this poker room so we can all LOL at your massive failure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]

The condition for such a site to exist is that players may only play at one table at a time, like real poker, which this internet "homegame" is supposed to emulate, indeed, possibly, would have to emulate, since that is the premise of the site.

[/ QUOTE ]


You seem to imply that just allowing 1 table at a time would come closer to making internet-poker 100% legal in the U.S.
You are making it sound like it isn't merely a preference of yours but that it would somehow make a difference in avoiding prosecution.
I do not agree with this assertion.

I am not in on this plan as I do not have faith in your ability to put something like this together properly.
But if it does get started somehow and looks good then I will have no problem playing there.

Don't frown on my lack of interest in this project.
I have said mostly the same thing to 2 other people who have approached me about how it would be such a great idea to get together and open an internet-poker site because it's clearly super-easy and we would make so much money.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Are you not elaborating on how this will be paid for so you can solicit ideas from the crowd while having no actual idea yourself?
Maybe you could get the poker software cheaper and quicker by buying a base version from a site that has gone under and making modifications to the product as necessary.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

dude get a f*cking grip. your "idea" makes no sense at all and will never happen. You do realize the operating expenses of major poker sites are in the millions of dollars. The title of this thread has no bearing because you have not even come remotely close to presenting a business plan. All you have said is "hi my name is tuff fish i make retarded internet poker videos of me playing like a donk but talking like i think i know something... haha thats so funny. Oh btw i think i know how to make poker legal. just make it free. oh and only one table. its revolutionary. Anybody who disagrees with me is either an idiot or hates money."

yea cya there

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[/ QUOTE ]

Tuff, I admire your enthusiasm, but I have a serious question for you.
Do you think when a FTSE100 company is forced to drop 85% of it's revenue that it might have had every top legal mind at it's disposal looking at legal ways to offer poker in the US?

[/ QUOTE ]


This post has kind of been lost in the shuffle of this whole thread.
Mike, the lawyers there evidently couldn't figure out how to do it but several other sites could. Is that due to the whole situation of party being a publicly traded company as others have speculated or were the lawyers hired by Party just significantly more gun-shy and conservative compared with the PokerStars and FullTilt lawyers who were looking at the very same UIGEA?

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

If you allowed multitabling then I could be looking at a different ad on each of my 10 tables.

Why the age limit of 21?

Perhaps your plan is to just get a ton of people to put money on your site so you can earn the interest?

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Everyone would at least look at a rake free site.

However...

The point of a business is to make money. Nobody starts a business just to give people a great way to play poker.

The only way your one table rule is ever going to go anywhere is if it makes more money than allowing more than one table either by bringing in more money or costing less.

How is your site going to make money?

How is your site going to make more money by limiting players to one table?

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

How will you pay support?

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

they'll be volunteers who share in his vision. He'll compliment and thank them a lot to get them to stick around.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Tuff, the answer to your question is no, I'm not excited. I'd have to be crazy to deposit into a site that will be shut down tout de suite by the DOJ or state Attorneys General.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
they'll be volunteers who share in his vision. He'll compliment and thank them a lot to get them to stick around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone will be so thrilled to be playing at his site they wont want support.

Tuff, why on earth would people trust you with their money when you can't even admit the reason for no software/only one table is your own personal bias?

Your idea sounds alot like WPX, doesnt allow software there was 100% rakeback and you couldnt really multitable that much since there never was enough traffic AND debit cards were easily accepted, all those things considered its still the rockiest site online and has a huge bot problem, your site sounds very similar.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]


Cheaters and colluders will be shot, survivors will be shot again. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]




Who is in on these terms?

Tuff

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd sign up just because of this clause in the T&Cs [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

hey guys, what's wrong with you? When I read the OP I though "OMG he's going to be laughed off". But you punish him. He either fails (you lose nothing) or he succeeds (you gain good site). Laugh at him but don't discourage him.

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt support a site that forces me to only play one table, especially considering its only because the founder can't multitable so is pushing his bias on everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]
it's becuase he won't be able to sell 24 advertisements at one single IP... I think he'll end up limiting the time even more.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think anyone would choose to play at such a site as I have outlined?

[/ QUOTE ]
If you have fish there, count on me.

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, everyone here thinks this is an awful idea.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't! I think it's wonderful idea! And I wish you really succeed.
But I don't think you really succeed (you won't earn enough to pay all that costs and I'm not considering the advertisements costs).

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

Tuff,

We had/have this site. It was called WSEX. It's a site attached to a sportsbook, with no rake (yes yes blah blah blah contributed is different, who cares; certainly the fish don't know the difference), no hand histories to speak of, and also nobody playing on it. Except for that bot ring, which, hilariously, turned out to be the sole thing keeping the games running in the first place.

Re: Zero Rake Poker Business plan
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are several lakes in the region, and lots of fisherman. All of the lakes except one are suffering severely from over fishing. All the fisherman have dozens of poles, some nets, and even the odd stick of dynamite.

[/ QUOTE ]
OH I got it! You are gonna be the only one allowed to multi tabling (without limitations) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

kidding. The fish don't care so much if you can't play many tables but don't bother with multi tabling nits cause as I said you won't sell enough advertisements even for an average single-tabler...