Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

I'd imagine this "open" style is not very effective at 200NL?

But it was a brilliant post...

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

[ QUOTE ]

1) Reraising Preflop

Many midstakes players have a very tight reraising range. They will reraise their big hands, and even though their range is so slim, they still make far more money on these hands than they should be making, given how well defined their hands tend to be in certain spots. These same players are content to just call preflop with certain hands, and even though their decision to call may be +EV, they don't even consider their third option, which is to reraise.

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Reraising definitely should be considered. Here is some advice from the HU/SH limit forum to think (but probably not to use preflop): "If you are not sure whether to call or fold, raise!"

It's also good to think about why so many MSNL players do not reraise lightly. One reason is that we're used to playing against SSNL players who are too passive for their own good, who are not raising lightly. It doesn't make sense to open up your reraising range against someone who is only raising JJ+ and AK, and who will not fold to a reraise. When someone raises with A8, 55, and T9, then you can profitably reraise with many more hands.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

The first two seem to be strategies against other 2+2ers - should create action for all of us in the next few days. There'll be a few more 4-bets with 65o in the future.

I agree 100% about bankroll considerations - the standard of 20 is way too light for anyone who is a pro or semi-pro and without other significant sources of income to replenish that; a player will go broke or have to drop multiple levels eventually. I'm willing to play 3/6 or 5/10 when my buddy list finds a fish there (I'm 92PTBB/100 at 5/10 over my first 14 hands, no less), but I'm not moving up until I experience the downswing I know is coming.

I've already begun re-raising light out of the blinds and taking it down pre-flop or with a c-bet 90% of the time. I do it mostly because I'm upset that these people keep stealing my blinds time after time -

BTW, the retards (or, I suppose, in homage to AJFenix, downies) who keep saying brown trout or asking me if I'm a 2+2er - do people just completely ignore screen names here? - ah well, separate complaint I guess.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The first two seem to be strategies against other 2+2ers - should create action for all of us in the next few days. There'll be a few more 4-bets with 65o in the future.

I agree 100% about bankroll considerations - the standard of 20 is way too light for anyone who is a pro or semi-pro and without other significant sources of income to replenish that; a player will go broke or have to drop multiple levels eventually. I'm willing to play 3/6 or 5/10 when my buddy list finds a fish there (I'm 92PTBB/100 at 5/10 over my first 14 hands, no less), but I'm not moving up until I experience the downswing I know is coming.

I've already begun re-raising light out of the blinds and taking it down pre-flop or with a c-bet 90% of the time. I do it mostly because I'm upset that these people keep stealing my blinds time after time -

BTW, the retards (or, I suppose, in homage to AJFenix, downies) who keep saying brown trout or asking me if I'm a 2+2er - do people just completely ignore screen names here? - ah well, separate complaint I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think i was ar your table when some downie kept askin some other guy..... guess we had 4 2+2ers.....

-JP

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

I see McShove is being himself here. perfectly fine with reading and learning. Gets his nickers in a twist when he fears someone else might learn something he thought he had monopoly on.

Reminds me of a thread in STT a week or so ago about what skills you need to move from STT to NL cash. McShove being his usual helpful self:

[ QUOTE ]
B-wig. I don't really want to post the exact things you do to make the switch, but you've helped me in the past at SNGs.

PM me if you want help, i'll be glad to PM you back.

I meant B-wig, my bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wtf? um i offered advice to b-wig not you.

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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

Excellent post.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The first two seem to be strategies against other 2+2ers - should create action for all of us in the next few days. There'll be a few more 4-bets with 65o in the future.


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awesome, i'm ahead of the learning curve!!

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

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Ugh...why post this? AJ if you have such a firm grasp on the game, as it seems you do from this post...why post it for free for anyone to read? I know i sound selfish, but really!

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seems to be consistent with EVERY OTHER POST ON 2+2. i admit this was better than most, but this is a forum where everybody collaborates to become better. don't worry too much, the # of people that will read this post is almost certainly <1% of your opponents lifetime.

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i disagree. less than 1 %? Nearly every 3/6 table i look at has 1 or 2 regulars, half of whom I KNOW read this forum. I love 2+2...but this specific advice...Kratzer, Fenix..this only hurts us.

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Good idea, McShove.

For anyone who wants, I'm hosting a 2+2 book burning in the NYC area. Our message is simple: no one should be allowed to tell anyone anything about poker. I'll even play that book burning music from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade the whole time - it'll be fun.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The first two seem to be strategies against other 2+2ers - should create action for all of us in the next few days. There'll be a few more 4-bets with 65o in the future.


[/ QUOTE ]
awesome, i'm ahead of the learning curve!!

[/ QUOTE ]

btw gp, I found nothing wrong with your preflop play in that other thread and I thought alot of people were being overly critical of what I thought was a good move preflop.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

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You are now ignoring this user. You will no longer see the body of any of their posts.

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glad I could get this out of the way before I move up and start posting here.

BTW, Awesome stuff, AJ

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

damn it AJ.

I don't need every body reraising light on me.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

Mcshove is right, this will only hurt us, but the whole point of this forum is to teach and share knowledge, and if people were concerned about sharing knowledge when I first strated posting I would me a much worse player than I am today.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

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if people were concerned about sharing knowledge when I first strated posting I would me a much worse player than I am today.

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Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

Hey guys,

I was drunk and my posts were out of line last night.
My apologies to the forum, and in particular, AJ and Karak.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

For everyone who thinks that a post like this will give too much away and will cost them a lot of money, it really won't. Although it is a really good post, the concepts brought up are not revolutionary. All the thinking mhnl players basically know this stuff, but don't do it because putting it into practice is a whole not tougher than knowing it. That is why poker is a such a great game.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
For everyone who thinks that a post like this will give too much away and will cost them a lot of money, it really won't. Although it is a really good post, the concepts brought up are not revolutionary. All the thinking mhnl players basically know this stuff, but don't do it because putting it into practice is a whole not tougher than knowing it. That is why poker is a such a great game.

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Completely agree. I knew all this stuff in the back of my mind but it didn't really click until I got owned at 5/10 and now I'm trying to work it into my game at 3/6. Great post AJ.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

good post AJ.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

the whole catch behind all this is WHY OP is not as good a player as the people he talked to. I mean, think about: he now knows all of these ideas so why can't he use them as well as they can? the answer is HAND READING. and you can't really teach that just by making a 'deep' post on a message board. and that's why there is no harm is sharing strategic info on a forum. even if i talked strategy with one person all day and all night, when i played against them i would still feel that it is possible to have an advantage because of the way I mix up my play to be unreadable and the way i can read their play.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey guys,

I was drunk and my posts were out of line last night.
My apologies to the forum, and in particular, AJ and Karak.

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<font color="blue">I dunno man</font>, a lot of the replies you made seemed totally well-thought out and rationally expressed. You only seem to be 'apologizing' now because your opinions were met with total outrage from everyone.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

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putting it into practice is a whole lot tougher than knowing it.

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This is very true. Like I said, it can be very hard to change certain things once they have been a routine for so long. On the other hand, being worried about me giving too much away is a bit ridiculous for a number of reasons. The relative number of people who are going to be reading this post is very small compared to that of the actual player pool at midstakes. An even smaller % is going to be getting something new out of what I said or adjusting their game in any way that may negatively affect your current situation, assuming you even play with any of those people on a regular basis, and you should be able to find a slew of good tables regardless. If you are worried that its going to negatively affect you when the player pool condenses at higher stakes, the fact is that those players you are worried about are already going to have the knowledge of everything that was brought up, and much more. Either way, its fairly selfish, as this forum is here to teach. From the right perspective, these things are very basic. You still need to play and put in the time and effort yourself, and build off of these basics and deal the situations they bring up.

I was a bit off on my stats on the top Party players and figured I would clarify (although another friend is still insisting that one of the following should be 27/22). They are more along the lines of: 24/13, 23/18, 20/16, 47/29 (which I did get right [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]). I don't think this changes anything that was said, though. As far as other games, one of the "BOW"'s is 27/19 and his biggest competitor runs close to that as well, as far as stats a friend had on UB. Thanks to Gregg for getting back to me with the Party stats, though.

TWP, for me personally a better word would probably be experience, or lack thereof, which obviously ties into hand reading. These players have been doing what they do for a much longer time, over a gigantic number of hands. I haven't even begun doing some of the things they do. Experience develops that better hand reading, makes you accustomed to the various situations that your plays put you in and teaches you how to deal with them profitably, and everything else that ties in. Of course some people may play and play and never address certain leaks or learn to deal with certain situations, but I think for me personally the lack of experience is key.

All that being said, glad people enjoyed the post. Hope it served its purpose.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

cut mcshove a break, drunk people like arguing

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

uhm so i guess what i was going to say has been said but...

for people who can apply this stuff, this post is a just a reminder. for people who don't understand it or can't apply it correctly, it's going to make the games better. imagine a whole table full of BAD lags? I'm salivating.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

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for people who don't understand it or can't apply it correctly, it's going to make the games better.

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This is true, although obviously not my intention. People incorrectly applying the information, and/or putting themselves into situations that they do not know how to deal with properly and subsequently making big mistakes is going to cost them money. Experience and analyzing your play properly is the cure.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

Great post, have to say ...

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

another great MSNL post bookmarked for future reference by a mediocre SSNL player who's gonna make it up here soon....

thanks lots.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
for people who don't understand it or can't apply it correctly, it's going to make the games better.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, although obviously not my intention. People incorrectly applying the information, and/or putting themselves into situations that they do not know how to deal with properly and subsequently making big mistakes is going to cost them money. Experience and analyzing your play properly is the cure.

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aj -
obv it wasn't your intention. just trying to calm down the people going crazy about this post.

vn btw. now, are you ever going to actually PLAY poker again?

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

best post I've ever read here. Thanks alot

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

AJ, about raising light: Do you find yourself doing this more with good but not great hands like AJ or KQ, or would you rather put in the second raise with hands like 87s or 55? I guess my problem with the first group is that if you get called, you're likely dominated or a coin flip at best. With the second group of hands, you have the chance to hit a big/concealed hand, and they have just as much "bluffing equity" when you miss the flop.

Btw, if you throw in a few examples, this would make a great 2+2 magazine article.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
uhm so i guess what i was going to say has been said but...

for people who can apply this stuff, this post is a just a reminder. for people who don't understand it or can't apply it correctly, it's going to make the games better. imagine a whole table full of BAD lags? I'm salivating.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree that a post like this isn't going to change the games or anything, I have a hard time seeing a bunch of weak night semi nits turn into bad chip spewing air pushing lags.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

Nice post.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

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weak night semi nits turn into bad chip spewing air pushing lags.

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I agree partially. But remember, if a nit had any hand reading skills then he wouldn't be as nitty. This post might give him the idea that he will become a better plyaer JUST by playing crazier. Either way, as someone said earlier, the bad players are still going to play bad. Unless you can read hands well, it doesn't matter how much advice and strategy you read and talk about, youll never progress beyond being a mediocre player.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
cut mcshove a break, drunk people like arguing

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Except anyone who has read the STT forum for a while knows this is how he feel. Not just drunken arguing. He is probably one of the best regulars of STTF to more or less never post any usefull help to anyone playing above the 11's.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

Sam,

There are times when it would could be appropriate to do so with any of those hands.
With KQ and AJ, being dominated isn't nearly as bad as you may think it is when you are have that momentum. You can't only consider absolute hand value in this situation. Lets say you have KQ on the button facing a CO raise and you reraise. Lets say he calls you with AQ or AK. Both of you will be whiffing the flop completely the majority of the time, but you are going to be the one putting pressure on him, forcing him to make a hand, and pushing him off of the best hand. Some players may even opt to pitch these hands against you preflop, given they will be OOP for one. Same thing goes for when he has a small pocket pair trying to crack your perceived "big pair". He whiffs and folds his hand, which was actually good unimproved. You cut his implied odds drastically, and make calling a mistake for him in many of those spots. You are forcing your opponent to make decisions, and when he is forced to make decisions he is given the opportunity to make mistakes.

Talking about the other hands, something like 55 on the small blind facing a button raise is going to have pretty bad implied odds as his raising range is so wide and its going to be pretty rare that he is actually going to have something big when you have something bigger, and on top of that you are going to be playing OOP where its much harder to get paid off when you do hit. You are also going to end up folding the best hand a ton, even if you aren't necessarily check/folding every flop you don't spike a set on. Reraising = you are forcing him to make his hand, you are putting him at a decision and therefor letting him make mistakes, and you create more profitable situations for yourself while bettering your overall situation.

Also, I wanted to comment that "opening up" doesn't mean you have to drastically increase your VPIP and try to play maniac/LAG. Players that have "opened up" are willing to reraise more preflop, spot and make use of a larger amount of profitable situations (which ties into preflop), are capable of taking unconventional lines with hands that other players wouldn't consider, remain deceptive and creative, and do a better job of factoring in all the details when it comes into their decisions, among other things. Players that are going to start reraising light without taking into consideration the important factors, and/or making mistakes in the situations they get themselves into are going to be costing themselves a lot of money.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

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Ugh...why post this? AJ if you have such a firm grasp on the game, as it seems you do from this post...why post it for free for anyone to read? I know i sound selfish, but really!

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McShove,

Have you ever read anything on 2+2 that helped you? If not, please stop posting, as it is a waste of time for you to spend time on these forums. If so, please pay everyone who has posted something that helped you.

AJ, great post. Definitely some good food for thought. Thank you.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

I wish we could move this whole McShove mess to a different thread because I don't want to take away from the PURE QUALITY of AJ's post. At the same time, I want to express my displeasure at having to share 2+2 with <font color="blue">leeches </font> like McShove. There's no other word for it.

I hope that poll gets a 100 votes and that some mod comes and at least changes his title. Spite call this ass.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

Good stuff AJ, very good stuff.

McShove, just stop.

Re: Adding to #2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good post. Something I just wanna add is if you've been at the table for a bit and people are noticing you often give up after cbetting and getting called, a good line to take it either 2 barrel bluff (which im not crazy about cause I often play for pot control when OOP and check the turn with many good hands) or go for the CR. The opponent jumps on your weakness, bets pot which should be 20bb and this point, and allows you to CR him allin. If you have an overpair on a 262 board or a good hand that your willing to go broke with (and often you should against someone whos calling to float), this play works amazing becuase it makes them afraid to float you if you not only fire second barrels, but have the balls to CR their asses allin. Do this play with the goods most often, and sometimes just whiffed AK hands, and thell lay off.

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ahnuld this is good stuff!

AJ thanks for sharing-your strategy posts are always worthwile reading but you put alot of effort into this one-very helpful to see in print because I know my game suffers from many of the defiencies you refer to in your post.

You can make good money up to $200's and $400's without these adjustments but to go beyond that you need to open up-if you dont you are just too easy to read and you will be punished like a little bitch.

I'm already forcing myself to open up..its very difficult because I've done well at every nlhe 6max level i've played. I'm raising hands in early position I formerly limped with,I'm re-raising more out of the blinds and floating more..its quite difficult because all of a sudden I'm in unfamiliar territory often out-of position which I'm not used to one bit. Playing in unfamiliar territory over and over forces you to think about the game(at least if you want to survive)and thus becoming a better hand reader and that's what this is all about-better post-flop play.

It seems to me that the better players may have adapted more easily to this natural necesary progression almost seamlessly but most of us will have to work at it..and even then many just will not get it to work. This is where the really excellent hand-readers are separated from just the very good hand-readers...if you cant make this leap ie the peter principal you may not be able to play much higher.

I think many players who only make money off fish are only endowed with average or slightly above average hand-reading skills vis-a-vis their opponents and they will fail miserably at attempting to open up all at once...it most be a gradual process except for the natural allstars.

In other words I think most players would do better if they slowly moved more towards this style ie maybe this progression 20/10,20/15,25/15,25/20,30/20 or some such and tweaking it to their own prefernces.

With great game selection maybe a 20/10 can work.. but all these games are getting tougher and in most of the games bigger than $3-6 I see that I datamine most of the biggest earners play with 30/20ish-type stats.
I'm referring to 6/5 max NLHE play.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

Recently I was thinking about reraising preflop. While I've been very successful with my TAG style lately, I think I still am generally a tight reraiser, and soon enough my opponents will realize it (Especially as I move up to 3/6 tables where I run into more regulars and 2+2ers).

So, I figured I needed to expand my reraising range, and was considering posting to request ideas on the best way to go about it. Well, I think I just about have it figured out now thanks to this post/thread. Opening up your range isnt just about "ok, now i'll reraise with TT and AQ now too". Its about seeing profitable situations where your cards, your opponents, and the table situation as a whole are set up just right for a profitable reraise. And when that profitable reraise can get you more action later too... bonus!

Now, this is a concept that I essentially was aware of, but it hadn't sunk in quite as clearly until i read aj's post. Opening up a little more preflop is the next step in my game, and I'm glad to have had it so clearly expounded upon.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

For those that are playing 400NL+ (only because this stuff won't work if you get too low) and want to practice, move down a level to try it. The concepts should be the same but you can learn for half price. Then go back to your regular game and try it. You should immediately find your regular game a lot easier.

Re: Opening Up Your Eyes and Your Game (very long)
 

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