Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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And don't start me on children owing parents. Do children owe to marry someone they don't love because it will make their domineering control-freak parents happy? Do children owe to take up occupations prescribed by parents? Where does it end? People make a lot of choices that make their family unhappy, that's the chances you take when you procreate.

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I only said this twice already, let me say it again. This is my view of what a child owes its parents:

"by fulfilling your obligation to yourself to live well, to find whatever your idea is of happiness and obtain for yourself on your own terms the best life possible given the start your parents have given you, you are also implicitly fulfilling your obligation to your parents. You are making the most of the life they have given you, and allowing them to find happiness in your happiness, and pride at your success"

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The problem with this quote is that it assumes that "being alive" is the optimum state for everyone.

-McGee

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If you're not trolling, I don't know what to say. Of course it is.

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I'm not trolling at all. I understand that you, personally, do not feel this way -- and the vast majority of us don't -- but there are people for whom life is absolutely miserable. For such unfortunate folks, being alive is not the most desirable state of affairs.

-McGee

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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But you should LIVE, and find happiness, and let them be happy at that. If you have had loving, supportive parents and you're not suffering any unconquerable mental illness, you do not have the right to kill yourself.

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You can make this point over and over but you keep ignoring the fact that she didn't ask for life so why is she obligated to keep it?

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Because that point's facile and beneath contempt. None of us chose to be born; yet, finding ourselves alive, we all live by codes of rules set by our friends, families, society and government.

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A social contract such as the one you describe, however, suggests that the person voluntarily enters into it -- by choosing to live in society. You're not giving them the ability to opt out.

-McGee

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

Jimm,

There is no indication the daughter killed herself, just speculation. It could just have easily been an accident.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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Jimm,

There is no indication the daughter killed herself, just speculation. It could just have easily been an accident.

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Seems super-super-super unlikely!

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

The chances of it being an accident are probably about the same as the chances of her not being mentally ill. Why would you expect a mentally ill person to think and behave rationally?

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

I forget what book it was in, maybe the Tipping Point, but it said whenever there are reports of suicides in the newspaper, car crash rates increase.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

So much for me not arguing this all day.

Luckyjimm, I also find your characterization of the mother's death inconsistent with your stated overall view on suicide. For all we know, this woman's mother was still alive. At the very least, we know that she had a husband. Why doesn't she "owe" to her loved ones what you claim her daughter owed her?

It seems to me that you're upset because a)you think the girl needlessly killed herself, and b)that led to her mother doing the same. Both of those things could very well be true; I don't necessarily disagree with either of them. But my objection is that you are turning those emotions into what I consider to be an inconsistent and ill-thought out philosophy on the subject.

-McGee

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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The chances of it being an accident are probably about the same as the chances of her not being mentally ill. Why would you expect a mentally ill person to think and behave rationally?

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Because I don't accept that a love-sick teenager is "mentally ill". Probably seen Romeo & Juliet a few too many times.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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The chances of it being an accident are probably about the same as the chances of her not being mentally ill. Why would you expect a mentally ill person to think and behave rationally?

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Because I don't accept that a love-sick teenager is "mentally ill". Probably seen Romeo & Juliet a few too many times.

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You have no clue what was going on in her life outside of the breakup, so what makes you think that was the only problem she was dealing with? ASSumptions FTL.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

Wow you douches are so selfish you wont even let people kill themselves without insulting them.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

One of the guys in my extended circle of HS friends ended up killing himself while his mother killed herself at the same time. It was really creepy. They rented a sleazy motel room to do it. He had always lived with his grandparents because his parents were so effed up, unfortunately his gp's did a number on him as well. The details are kind of hazy now as it was like 15 yrs. ago but the whole situation was very sad. One of them slit their throat and one slit their throat and shot their self(I think the mother.)

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

I can't believe I am about to agree with luckyjimm .

Suicide is an ultimately selfish act. It is THE ultimately selfish act.

Those of you that are saying "she didn't ask to be born, so she doesn't owe her parents jackfreakingmonkeyballs": newsflash...that's the selfish response.

An unselfish person would not kill themselves, not because they "owe" their parents, but because they don't want to cause immeasurable anguish to someone that loves them. Whether she asked to be born or not, now that she is here, someone has lavished love on her since she was a tiny baby. Parents make tons of mistakes, huge mistakes sometimes, even some that scar their children for years afterward. But in most cases, they still adore their children.

If someone loves you completely, has for your whole life, and has never intentionally done anything to hurt you, killing yourself is completely selfish behavior.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

See I think it's selfish for you to expect someone else to suffer by staying alive so that you don't have to suffer because of their death!

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

why in the world is the selfish/unselfish distinction being brought into this discussion

it has absolutely no bearing on suicide whatsoever - 'selfish' is just a pejorative word being used to say 'those who cause pain'.

the next time i hear about a suicide, my first instinct will be to say, 'god what a prick! i mean, honestly - the nerve!'

we need a whole new way of talking about things like this

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

More pics and detail about the mother and daughter who killed themselves here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/ar...70&ito=1490

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

the tragedy here is that she was very cute

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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See I think it's selfish for you to expect someone else to suffer by staying alive so that you don't have to suffer because of their death!

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Yes, because I imagine they are suffering less pain than their suicide will cause.
Added to that, of course, they don't know where death will take them, and whether it will be any less painful!

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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the tragedy here is that she was very cute

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A mob of fat, ugly girls is going to rip you limb from limb one day.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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The chances of it being an accident are probably about the same as the chances of her not being mentally ill. Why would you expect a mentally ill person to think and behave rationally?

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Because I don't accept that a love-sick teenager is "mentally ill". Probably seen Romeo & Juliet a few too many times.

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Your attitude towards suicide is somewhat understandable, though I don't agree with it. Problem is it seems to have warped your perception of events.

The girl committed suicide. It is beyond presumptuous of you to dismiss the possibility that she had more going on than a bit of 'love sickness.'

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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The girl committed suicide. It is beyond presumptuous of you to dismiss the possibility that she had more going on than a bit of 'love sickness.'

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By the way, this part I 100% agree with.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

One thing that hasn't been brought up is that generally people in a suicidal state honestly don't believe that anyone will miss them when they are gone.

It isn't a rational decision to take your own life and I would never say suicide is the right answer for someone. There is plenty of time to be dead. But, these people aren't thinking rationally and the suicide isnt born out of the want to maliciously hurt anyone else.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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One thing that hasn't been brought up is that generally people in a suicidal state honestly don't believe that anyone will miss them when they are gone.

It isn't a rational decision to take your own life and I would never say suicide is the right answer for someone. There is plenty of time to be dead. But, these people aren't thinking rationally and the suicide isnt born out of the want to maliciously hurt anyone else.

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Yes.

It's easy in a vacuum, or in a rational state, to say that suicide is "incredibly selfish and stupid".

But to those passing judgment: do you know any clinically depressed people, or had someone close to you commit suicide?

-Al

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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But to those passing judgment: do you know any clinically depressed people, or have someone close to you commit suicide?

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Yes. And yes.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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More pics and detail about the mother and daughter who killed themselves here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/ar...70&ito=1490

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Maybe the guilt theory isn't so far off?

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Another theory is that Natasha was making her way along the tracks in the dark to her boyfriend's home in Lawford, Essex, when she was hit by a freight train. The pair agreed to break up for a few weeks because their parents thought they were spending too much time together.

Natasha's family hit out at claims she killed herself. Her grandfather Peter Clacket, 62, said it was 'lies'. He said: "It was a tragic accident."

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An accident is a possibility too, in both cases. Regardless, you don't have anywhere near enough info to make the judgments you're making.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

VR - I'm of the mindset (I've probably been very influenced by my father, a psychiatrist who treats extreme cases of clinical depression and schizophrenia) that sometimes a person's brain chemistry is such that they don't have alot of control over their actions. And it's not necessarily fair to characterize the act of suicide as selfish.

But I understand where you're coming from.

-Al

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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I can't believe I am about to agree with luckyjimm .

Suicide is an ultimately selfish act. It is THE ultimately selfish act.

Those of you that are saying "she didn't ask to be born, so she doesn't owe her parents jackfreakingmonkeyballs": newsflash...that's the selfish response.

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Disagree. It's a view of relationships that doesn't burden people with guilt and expectation based on things they had no say in.

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If someone loves you completely, has for your whole life, and has never intentionally done anything to hurt you, killing yourself is completely selfish behavior.

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One wonders why someone who had been the recipient of all that love would want to kill themselves in the first place.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

True or false:

Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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See I think it's selfish for you to expect someone else to suffer by staying alive so that you don't have to suffer because of their death!

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Yes, because I imagine they are suffering less pain than their suicide will cause.


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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] This is shocking. You underestimate the power of the basic survival instinct. To overcome it, a person must feel incredible pain.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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True or false:

Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain.

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First part: often false. Second part: often true.

There's more to the final decision than how you felt at that moment. Years of selfish/unselfish choices, responsibility, courage and so on lead you down various paths, some of them very foreseeable. You can't isolate a final decision based on overwhelming pain and absolve someone of responsibility or choice.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

Dictionary.com definition of selfish:

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devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

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Several of you are arguing that a person SHOULD behave in a way devoted only to onself, or at least that one shouldn't let one's parents influence one's decision. What you're saying is, "it's okay to be selfish".

That's a different argument from "it's NOT selfish". So far, Aloysius is the only one making that argument. Interestingly enough, he is also the only one making a valid point.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

my whole point is that selfishness doesn't enter into it - it's like describing an idea as red. mason's point is spot on - some of you are treating suicide as if you're saying - 'how could he/she do that to me?', that sounds rather selfish in its own right.

and yes, aloysius is right as well. that's the point people should be trying to make, but the above works too.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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Several of you are arguing that a person SHOULD behave in a way devoted only to onself

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No, it's setting the bar at a different point. To some, it's unforgivably selfish if you don't go along with your parents' arranged marriage. Yet you'd probably reject this notion. Why? Because you believe personal choice in that area isn't selfish.

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Here's a scenario: a person feels incredible physical pain. The only way he can survive without pain is to be locked to a hospital bed with no movement whatsoever and fed IV painkillers for the rest of his life. He wants assisted suicide. His control-freak parents dont want that, because some day perhaps a cure may be found.

1. Is it selfish of said person to want to committ suicide despite parents' wishes?
2. Is it selfish for parents to demand to keep their child alive despite his pain and otherwise incapacitation?

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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Dictionary.com definition of selfish:

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devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

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Several of you are arguing that a person SHOULD behave in a way devoted only to onself, or at least that one shouldn't let one's parents influence one's decision. What you're saying is, "it's okay to be selfish".

That's a different argument from "it's NOT selfish". So far, Aloysius is the only one making that argument. Interestingly enough, he is also the only one making a valid point.

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That isn't necessarily the case though. If you are in a suicidal state and you get into a fight with your parents you might irrationally believe that you are a burden on the same people that are looking out for your best interests. It can get to the point where a person starts tricking themselves into thinking that not only is it in their best interest to commit suicide, but it would make the lives of the people around them easier as well. It isn't selfish if you actually believe you are doing it for the benefit of everyone.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

who the [censored] are you, luckyjimm, to say this girl's life wasn't her own to take? You have no idea if she was depressed, felt a lot of pain, whatever... It's just not your place to say anything other than "that's sad."

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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Dictionary.com definition of selfish:

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devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

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Several of you are arguing that a person SHOULD behave in a way devoted only to onself, or at least that one shouldn't let one's parents influence one's decision. What you're saying is, "it's okay to be selfish".

That's a different argument from "it's NOT selfish". So far, Aloysius is the only one making that argument. Interestingly enough, he is also the only one making a valid point.

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VR,

Surely, you're not suggesting that it's never okay to be selfish.

-McGee

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

Meh - I don't buy that at all - especially in young people.

I've taken care of (meaning kept alive long enough to use for parts) about one patient between the age of 15 and 20 for each year of my career (18) who shot themselves in the head after an argument with a boy or girlfriend. A short term, stupid decision that I don't think has anything to do with chronic mental problems. As our nurses say, a permanant solution to a temporary problem.

I think almost EVERYONE is by some measure crazy between 15 and 18 or so, in terms of doing things that are objectivly foolish - drunk driving, dangerous behavior, etc. (Lord knows I was) - and sometimes they end up offing themselves.

For reference, catch that movie about suicides on the GG bridge in SF - interesting interviews with survivors who pretty much agreed that on the way down they immediatly thought "this was a bad idea"

And the poster who noted that no parent should have to bury their child was 100% on the money. When you have kids, or if you lose a younger brother, you'll undersand. You have a hole in your life forever, and it never goes away.

Anyway, don't shoot yourself over a piece of ass, or something to that effect....

MM MD

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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It's not the first time I've read of a parent committing suicide soon after their only child kills themselves:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7002179.stm

It is an intensely stupid and selfish act for this girl to have killed herself over some little tiff with her boyfriend. In a sense, her life is not hers to take. As an only child, she killed three people when she killed herself.

But when I think of her mother's death, it strikes me as unbelievably poignant and tragic. She killed herself because she felt she had nothing left to live for. Quite differently from her daughter, she judged that, yes, her life had lost its purpose and would not get better. In losing her only child, she lost her own future.

Perhaps this story is so upsetting because it is small scale. I can't relate to a thousand made homeless by an earthquake. But the death of a family strikes me hard.

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What about poor Gary Coombs, 48, Eh? What about that poor [censored] guy?
You think the daughter was a silly thoughtless girl but the mother's suicide was 'sad and poignant'.

At least when the girl killed herself she may not have realised how it would ruin her parents lives. Her mother had no such excuse - she knew how devastating it would be. So explain how she's not selfish for topping herself and leaving Gary to bury his daughter and wife.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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Meh - I don't buy that at all - especially in young people.

I've taken care of (meaning kept alive long enough to use for parts) about one patient between the age of 15 and 20 for each year of my career (18) who shot themselves in the head after an argument with a boy or girlfriend. A short term, stupid decision that I don't think has anything to do with chronic mental problems. As our nurses say, a permanant solution to a temporary problem.

I think almost EVERYONE is by some measure crazy between 15 and 18 or so, in terms of doing things that are objectivly foolish - drunk driving, dangerous behavior, etc. (Lord knows I was) - and sometimes they end up offing themselves.

For reference, catch that movie about suicides on the GG bridge in SF - interesting interviews with survivors who pretty much agreed that on the way down they immediatly thought "this was a bad idea"

And the poster who noted that no parent should have to bury their child was 100% on the money. When you have kids, or if you lose a younger brother, you'll undersand. You have a hole in your life forever, and it never goes away.

Anyway, don't shoot yourself over a piece of ass, or something to that effect....

MM MD

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From your position of first hand knowledge, you've made the point I wanted to make. Yes, that's exactly it.

Re: Mother commits suicide at same spot as her only daughter
 

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who the [censored] are you, luckyjimm, to say this girl's life wasn't her own to take? You have no idea if she was depressed, felt a lot of pain, whatever... It's just not your place to say anything other than "that's sad."

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Guess what, I'm not in favour of teenagers/young people killing themselves. And 99% of the time, yes, they're better off staying alive. Since we don't know where if anywhere they go when they die, make that 100% of the time.

However bad your life is, it can get better.