Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

Does this mean that if you were playing on a HU table and the SB limped, you would check with 99 in the BB because you don't want to play a raised pot with 99 OOP? Because that would be pretty [censored] bad, and it's basically the same thing.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

you realize that saying 99 has 61.5% equity vs whatever is irrelevant unless you plan to raise pf and check every single street

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

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you realize that saying 99 has 61.5% equity vs whatever is irrelevant unless you plan to raise pf and check every single street

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It's certainly not irrelevant, but obviously hot and cold equity isn't a great way to analyze PF hand strength.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

how dare you contradict me

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

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it's not a likely 4 street pot

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yeah i agree, and it's becuase our hand isn't capable of that unless we hit a set. i'm not suggesting it will be potted, but i think vs a smart tricky regular that if we don't show enough strength, he will pounce on it, and i'm not a fan of showing a lot of strength oop, especially when i think i could get value from playing it as a small pot.

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just raise and play poker from there on

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i think a hand such as this when i have defined an opponent we all know to be tricky is not the type of player i want to be playing poker with oop, hence i suggest keeping the pot small. maybe i simply don't like to try to outplay the good players, but i feel if i have spewed a buyin vs a tricky regular, it ends my session way earlier than if i lost a very small amount of value and then focused my attentions on the weaker players at the table.

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Stop speaking in such absolutes. Nearly every one of your posts is along the lines of "I always do this." "What do you do on the turn? (when discussing PF)"

Don't be so static in your play.

Fact of the matter is that 99 plays MUCH better post flop than you seem to think, and plays far better with initiative than without.

If the guy directly to your left is giving you so much trouble, sit somewhere else.


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agreed it is a static approach, but i feel ive learnt a lot last month about not trying to play a set system 100% and instead have some set rules but then if i need to change the rules/adapt, then i do.

i don't think i have the initiative by raising 99 pf becuase given if i'm not planning to bet flop, turn and river, at some point i will show weakness and lose the initiative.

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what you are failing to note is just how often an overcard flops to your dummy hand, meaning you are simply burning money.

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sorry triumph i don't understand, please explain if you could.

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when you limp/call like that if you have tag stats i will put you on a pocket pair and abuse you.

limp/calling can be profitable if used correctly, but inventing a wide range to limp/call is tossing money away. remember, you could've had that blind for free.


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i would like to think the biggest improvement in my game since my 'study time' was the importance of adapting when feeling a player was exploiting, so if i was limping and you were often raising, ill start limp-reraising trash, then good hands.

my concern about 'you could of had that blind for free' is that you'll know im often trying to blind steal, so will often 3bet, or flat call and float on the flop. tricky players are not the ones i want to be looking to be playing oop when my range is so wide imo.

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean that if you were playing on a HU table and the SB limped, you would check with 99 in the BB because you don't want to play a raised pot with 99 OOP? Because that would be pretty [censored] bad, and it's basically the same thing.


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yeah true, i would def be raising it heads up, but then i'm trying to outplay that 1 opponent, not focus on the fish on my right who has annoyingly folded his button when i look down at 99.

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you realize that saying 99 has 61.5% equity vs whatever is irrelevant unless you plan to raise pf and check every single street

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yeah i realize that, just someone said how strong 99 was, and i feel it isn't given you are only going to win 61.5% of the time against the hand range i gave, and given you are oop vs a tricky opponent, i don't think that is good enough.


anyways, thanks for all the replies, i guess having thought about it for this long, it is not so much a hand specific question, more of the merits of raising into a tricky BB. I feel the cost of being oop vs a tricky player outweighs the benefit of having 99 versus his random hand.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

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at some point i will show weakness and lose the initiative.

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Not if he folds.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

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at some point i will show weakness and lose the initiative.

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Not if he folds.

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true yeah, i reckon i must of had a nightmare last night when some guy just kept on floating me. i guess i've taken this out of the equation too much, after all if he wasn't folding i'd start firing big on the turn with more marginal hands or check-raising flops/turns.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

john kane -

by limp/calling you will see an overcard to your nines on the flop a large amount of the time. without knowing the opponent's two barrel frequency, you will likely be calling or folding incorrectly.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

just open

fire turn more or c/r turn more to adjust

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

Is 99 in the SB folded to even worth a "debate" like this!?

john kane your longwinded posts on something trivial are giving me a headache.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

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Is 99 in the SB folded to even worth a "debate" like this!?

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no, not really

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

wtf raise

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

pretty much if villain to your left is that freakin good, and abuses you so much, then i think i would rather find a new table.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

lol, i assumed it was going to be someone raises and you have to decide whether to 3bet or call. of course you raise preflop bind v blind.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

LOL @ 6 pages of serious discussion about limping 99 in SB vs BB. [censored], just raise!!!!!!!!!

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

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pretty much if villain to your left is that freakin good, and abuses you so much, then i think i would rather find a new table.

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He was sitting next to Phil Ivey playing $2/$4.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

you guys are MOR-ANs

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

man, i thought this thread would be about something different and, well, difficult. if you limp 99, you have to limp a ton of other stuff, and then everything falls apart. its a big hand, raise it for value, learn to play poker postflop.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

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you guys are MOR-ANs

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Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

I think Tony G. just covered this in a video. Try to bet a little to see where you're at... then suddenly, yank the slider bar all to the way to the right.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

open shove, mix in some air and AA sometimes and its UNBEATABLE.

Re: The 99 Preflop SB Debate
 

okay cool, i think djsensei sums it up pretty well i guess.

my only point is that if your up against a smart tricky opponent who is playing your hand strength (rather than his own cards), then you have to have confidence with 99 come the river. personally i don't think i would have confidence come the river, given it is only slightly better than a mid pair and given that if i had raised preflop his calling range numerically gets higher (given he calls all broadways and not 26 for example).

thus given i can't have confidence i am therefore will likely check (on turn or river), giving him an opportunity to bet. i then have no idea whether he is betting as a bluff or for value, and that is the situation i want to put my opponent in, not the other way round.

i think the general answers against that were that you can then introduce check-raising turns, firing all 3 streets, but whilst that would work, i prefer to concentrate my big pots against the worse players, as i find i'll end out getting in an ego war against some tough regular rather than extracting maximum value out of a 50/4 i'm playing on another table. maybe it's a symptom as im now trying to 11 or 12 table, but then this new style has been working, whereas my wars against the regulars style i used in july was only slightly better than breakeven. sure you can play aggressively vs regs without getting in an ego war, but i do think it does affect our play.

thanks again for the replies.