Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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why the irrational hate for jimmy rollins by people? position adjusted he is the most valuable player on the phillies going forward, yet everybody blows howard and utely.

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I down with the TT love but is this a typo?

Utley crushes Rollins at the bat, even giving Rollins the positional boost, and Utley is a better 2b than Rollins is a SS. Or if you want to add in the positional adjustment on defense, then Rollins is little more valuable defensively but Utley crushes him as a hitter.

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im going w PECOTA on this one.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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[ok genius whats the best position adjusted 'available' metric for discussing players overall worth?

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Super Linear Weights or some variant has been the correct answer for quite some time.

WARP blows, even Nate Silver admits that

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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im going w PECOTA on this one.

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Read the link above, Warp is crap, hence MORP is crap.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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im going w PECOTA on this one.

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Read the link above, Warp is crap, hence MORP is crap.

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ok he beats him by like a win over the next four seasons (supervorp).


still, rollins gets the shaft big time when discussing those two. they are virtual equals in terms of overall worth.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

I'm with sublime. TT was amazing this year. Huge outlier. he got jobbed.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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[ok genius whats the best position adjusted 'available' metric for discussing players overall worth?

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Super Linear Weights or some variant has been the correct answer for quite some time.

WARP blows, even Nate Silver admits that

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thing is superlwts isnt a WA metric....unless i just dont have the data source.

calling WARP crap is harsh. its still better than your basic OPS or OPS+ crap and thats what the majority use.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

Sublime,
Without injuries Utley is clearly better than Rollins, the injury is the only thing that made it closish.

TT> Braun, but it isn't a like Colon over Santana or Morneau > Jeter/Mauer for MVP.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

ppl like sublime are why no one likes statheads lololol

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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So I dids some research on the warps and saw hanley ramirez has a higher warp1 and warp3 and the same warp2 as tulowitzki.

So is this a good stat or not? Obv must fail because you said tulowitzki should be mvp over hanley, amirite?

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QFT

Either admit the stat you want to use is wrong or your contention that Tulowitzki > Ramirez is wrong.

Before you edit it:

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honestly, tulowtizki would be a better M V P candidate than ramirez.

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Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

JFC

TT saved 35 runs with his defense

HR cost his team 35 with his

wtf is wrong with you people?

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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Actually WARP3 isn't. Even BP would admit that.

Simply gonna notify all your posts troll ^^

plz don't feed the trolls, let's resume the rest of the thread

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Resume the thread? What's happening now seems to be the very reason for the thread

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

I'm pissed. Tulo was clearly the better player. Sportswriters are still stuck on BA, RBI, and HR.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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JFC

TT saved 35 runs with his defense

HR cost his team 35 with his

wtf is wrong with you people?

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but your stat says ramirez was still better overall amirite

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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Sublime,
Without injuries Utley is clearly better than Rollins, the injury is the only thing that made it closish.

TT> Braun, but it isn't a like Colon over Santana or Morneau > Jeter/Mauer for MVP.

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yes hes 'better'.

however rollins plays SS and utely plays 2B, rollins has has 2000 AB's over the last 3 years and utely 1700....thats half a season more being on the field....THESE THINGS COUNT. PECOTA sees the same thing going forward....rollins being on the field abiout half a seasons worth of AB's over the next four years. this is based on stuff like, size, skillset, handedness, position etc...

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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JFC

TT saved 35 runs with his defense

HR cost his team 35 with his

wtf is wrong with you people?

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but your stat says ramirez was still better overall amirite

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um yeah. i also said my 'stat' probably didnt account for defense correctly? AMIRITE?

wtf. now your nitpicking over like three quarters of a win? this after you cant say braun was a horrible choice for the award?

really, why do i argue with people like you? shoot me.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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I'm with sublime. TT was amazing this year. Huge outlier. he got jobbed.

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see heres the problem.

people are too dumb to realize that just because braun was a TERRIBLE choice for ROY that doesn't mean he didnt have a really really good rookie season.

the wording of terrible here isnt meant to poop on braun. its meant to show that TT was just unreal, sick, disgustingly valuable because of the position he played and how well he played it.


any other season and braun would be a FINE choice and i would probably be bitching that some guy on the mets robbed him. this year however, hes a TERRIBLE choice. period. end of discussion. i am right, anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

Okay I lied. I don't support sublime on that idiotic comment about Chase Utley. WTF?


Put the rock down. SE is like a cesspool of stupid. Plz stop spilling over to SBF. Assani is all yours.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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thing is superlwts isnt a WA metric....unless i just dont have the data source.


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what do you mean by WA? It adds up runs contributed on offense and saved on defense.

"Super Linear Weights is a method for evaluating the contributions of a baseball player towards his team. It was designed by Mitchel Lichtman and it calculates the total value that a baseball player contributes towards his team in terms of runs, where 0 represents the number of runs the average player adds. It uses linear weights to determine how many runs a player contributes on offense and UZR or Ultimate Zone Rating to determine how many runs he saves on defense."

link

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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Okay I lied. I don't support sublime on that idiotic comment about Chase Utley. WTF?


Put the rock down. SE is like a cesspool of stupid. Plz stop spilling over to SBF. Assani is all yours.

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its not idiotic....i mean look at what other SS's produce and what rollins spits out. look at the same for CU and 2B. i just dont think that rollins gets his just due is all.

saying he was worth more was overboard, fine. thinking they are not at least somewhat close in overall value isnt.

i have a man crush on jimmy. sorry. i love defending players (usually good defensive SS's)who get a lot less credit than they deserve.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

sorry

WA meant widely available. i mean tis a great stat, but i cant find it in like 4 seconds.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

Sublime,
Utley has a better VORP and a better +/- rating care to explain.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

Tulo got robbed, hands down. He was one of the best offensive rookies and THE BEST defensive SS in the majors. Braun is sick with the bat, but the Brewcrew need to find him a new position stat.

http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/2007/...ulowitzki.html

As for the Rollins/Utley debate; it's not one. Utley wins.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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Sublime,
Utley has a better VORP and a better +/- rating care to explain.

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And those are counting stats in which Utley missed a couple months of the season. Seriously, Utley so so sick.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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Sublime,
Utley has a better VORP and a better +/- rating care to explain.

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care to explain what?

my 'argument' is based on rollins playing SS and utely playing 2B.

SS >>>>>> 2B

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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Sublime,
Utley has a better VORP and a better +/- rating care to explain.

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And those are counting stats in which Utley missed a couple months of the season. Seriously, Utley so so sick.

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i love utely.

i love rollins.

i feel rollins gets overlooked.

i jumped the gun and went overboard with my jimmy defense.

i WAS WRONG.

can we let it go? please focus on the idiots who think braun was an acceptable choice.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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its not idiotic....i mean look at what other SS's produce and what rollins spits out.

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one season.

VORP factors in position adjustment. wow understand the stats you love so much

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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Sublime,
Utley has a better VORP and a better +/- rating care to explain.

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care to explain what?

my 'argument' is based on rollins playing SS and utely playing 2B.

SS >>>>>> 2B

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VORP and +/- take position into account.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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JFC

TT saved 35 runs with his defense

HR cost his team 35 with his

wtf is wrong with you people?

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Plus minus is an outs based system, not runs. If you don't even know what a stat means, please stop treating it like gospel, kthx.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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its not idiotic....i mean look at what other SS's produce and what rollins spits out.

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one season.

VORP factors in position adjustment. wow understand the stats you love so much

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wow.

rollins has been good for a long while now.

VORP accounts for players who play the same position. it doesnt work when comparing players across positions.

do people really think ryan howard was MORE VALUABLE to his team in 2006 than grady sizemore or joe mauer?

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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VORP accounts for players who play the same position. it doesnt work when comparing players across positions.

do people really think ryan howard was MORE VALUABLE to his team in 2006 than grady sizemore or joe mauer?

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I hate to pile-on here, but thats exactly what VORP is saying. It is saying how valuable a player is compared to a replacement player at the same position. Take a guy with identical stats and change his position from SS to 1B to CF and his VORP will change each time.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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JFC

TT saved 35 runs with his defense

HR cost his team 35 with his

wtf is wrong with you people?

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Plus minus is an outs based system, not runs. If you don't even know what a stat means, please stop treating it like gospel, kthx.

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UZR chart presented is a runs based system.

if youre gonna try and be clever....wait, dont. kthxbye

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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imo this is a complete sham. I know Braun put up sick numbers considering the amount of games he playd, but Tulo played a demanding defensive position and played it incredibly well. led his team to the post-season.

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No sweat. When Braun turns into the next Bob Hamelin, and Tulo into the next Ripken, maybe a handful of East Coast biased voters will rue their votes...

Nahhhhh, those asshats will probably still think Braun just didn't hit his potential while Tulo luckboxed a whole career, lol.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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VORP accounts for players who play the same position. it doesnt work when comparing players across positions.

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My god thats the ENTIRE POINT OF THE STAT.

"The number of runs contributed beyond what a replacement-level player at the same position would contribute if given the same percentage of team plate appearances." - BP

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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JFC

TT saved 35 runs with his defense

HR cost his team 35 with his

wtf is wrong with you people?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus minus is an outs based system, not runs. If you don't even know what a stat means, please stop treating it like gospel, kthx.

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UZR chart presented is a runs based system.

if youre gonna try and be clever....wait, dont. kthxbye

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JFC, what you posted was not UZR, this is UZR, and surprise surprise, 35 is wrong.

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/inde...st_of_2007_uzr

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

Sublime,
Did Toro take over your account or something?

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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VORP accounts for players who play the same position. it doesnt work when comparing players across positions.

do people really think ryan howard was MORE VALUABLE to his team in 2006 than grady sizemore or joe mauer?

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I hate to pile-on here, but thats exactly what VORP is saying. It is saying how valuable a player is compared to a replacement player at the same position. Take a guy with identical stats and change his position from SS to 1B to CF and his VORP will change each time.

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the thing is, replacement level SS's are worth more than replacement level 1B.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

lol im having a bad day. why do i waste so much time eitehr arguing with idiots, or posting wrong information (sorry dudd [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] no coffee, still TT pwns hanley by a sick amount)...the whole days is gone and nothing has been done. i retire.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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the thing is, replacement level SS's are worth more than replacement level 1B.

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Which is why VORP is runs above <u>A REPLACEMENT PLAYER AT THAT POSITION.</u>

Why would you think it didn't take that into account?

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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Sublime,
Did Toro take over your account or something?

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lol


i should have made the point about TT &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Rb and then left. instead i work on no sleep and make an ass out of myself. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]


i love you all, goodnight.

Re: Rockies fans are gonna be pissed. Braun Wins ROY
 

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I just cant think of anyone else who should win it.

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david wright (minus playoff crap, deservedly so), jimmy rollins, albert pujols (minus playoff crap, deservedly so)...


any of those guys wouldnt even compare to the horrible selection of braun over TT.

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With the Citizen Bank Park effect being greater than the Coors Field effect...