Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Because it's far from clear that the necessary levels of efficiency are achievable without fundamental advances, and because it's almost always a bad idea to put all of your eggs in one basket.

[/ QUOTE ]

the link I posted said solar will be competitive within 10 years. nanotechnololgy is what, 10-20 years old?

even if what you say is true, wouldn't it make sense to use the carbon tax to fund things like solar nano research?

[/ QUOTE ]

Predictions of the rate of development of technology shouldn't normally be taken seriously. I've looked into this area quite a bit. Several times groups have made 'breakthroughs' that seemed to herald massive improvements, but progress keeps stalling out.

Whether money should be allocated to this is unconnected with the money that comes from a carbon tax.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
Predictions of the rate of development of technology shouldn't normally be taken seriously. I've looked into this area quite a bit. Several times groups have made 'breakthroughs' that seemed to herald massive improvements, but progress keeps stalling out.

Whether money should be allocated to this is unconnected with the money that comes from a carbon tax.

[/ QUOTE ]

if we were certain to the same degree that we are certain of man made global warming, that an asteroid would hit the earth,

should we raise taxes or should we devote a bunch of resources to try and stop asteroid?

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Predictions of the rate of development of technology shouldn't normally be taken seriously. I've looked into this area quite a bit. Several times groups have made 'breakthroughs' that seemed to herald massive improvements, but progress keeps stalling out.

Whether money should be allocated to this is unconnected with the money that comes from a carbon tax.

[/ QUOTE ]

if we were certain to the same degree that we are certain of man made global warming, that an asteroid would hit the earth,

should we raise taxes or should we devote a bunch of resources to try and stop asteroid?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, but since you mention it newsbusters and people that control ICECAP are both on Exxons payroll. I find it curious how this seems to be your defacto sarcastic response to everything on this topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL it's not sarcastic, just front running the inevitable slam. You didn't disappoint me. Kind of like predicting that the price of oil would rise substantially on Wednesday, November 8, 2006 and recommending people buy oil company stocks with both fists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you hadn't brought up the oil thing I probably wouldn't have mentioned it the Exxon connections. The quality levels of American meteorologists is something of a hot topic right now even within the AMS. That is a problem on par with Exxon.

[ QUOTE ]
[sarcasm]BTW I realize that green movement is pure and that no tools are being paid to promote their agenda. I also realize nobody promoting "green" will make a penny off of getting their agenda implemented.[/sarcasm]

[/ QUOTE ]

Conspiracy claims against politicians is one thing. There is obvious fraud going on there. Claiming monetary conspiracy against mathematicians, geologists and physicists that work in the field is a display of gross ignorance. Choose who you attack wisely.

[ QUOTE ]
But hey I took your advice and purchased carbon offsets from TerraPass for a year so I'm cool,

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad you are making an effort. That is quite noble of you especially in light of your skepticism. My review of TerraPass was a quick once over and it seemed good especially with the countless media endorsements. I had a lawyer friend review it and he said it was a brokerage firm which is something I know nothing about. My opinion has gone to neutral.

[ QUOTE ]
sort of like Al Gore is cool in offsetting his behemouth carbon footprint. Maybe not Nobel Peace Prize winning cool but still pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adios, my favorite line of Al Gores is "a planet has a fever". Al Gore has contributed greatly to the science (such as fighting to declassify ice sheet thickness measurements from cold war nuclear submarines) but can cause just as much trouble as he solves. I don't understand why the public is fascinated with him. Maybe it's because he's so polarizing. He obviously gets under your skin (and I'll admit mine as well). I'm curious as to why this entire topic seems to aggravate you so much. You seem to be in a full on war to debunk AGW. You are a smart man. You bought TerraPass so it would seem you know what is obvious to every major scientific institution on the planet. Why do you choose to so fervently attack AGW instead of the moronic bureaucrats that try to ram Kyoto down our throats. Ignoring a problem won't make it go away. The only thing you can do is focus your efforts on making sure the solution will be one you agree with.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Weather Channel Founder calls Global Warming Biggest Scam in History

Discuss....

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain why I should care about his opinion.

Lots of scientists saying man made global warming is a very likely possibilty = irrational cultist conspiracy

One guy says it isnt = must be true.

Who is it who is being cultist and irrational?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the fact that you used "one guy" and not "one scientist". With TV personalities, scientists are rarely at the helm.... even on science related shows.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in History
 

[ QUOTE ]
Weather Channel Founder calls Global Warming Biggest Scam in History

Discuss....

[/ QUOTE ]

Miller, the guy who does all the shows on HBO of skiers etc. going all over the world, dropping down off a helicopter and going down a 10k mountain on skis. He has no doubt there is global warming. He's been traveling around the globe since the 50's.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The manhattan project was to spend money to buld a nuclear bomb. Government spending is not going to make a non price comeptitive product price competitive. Did the government subsidize the car industry to replace horses? In fact can you site one example where government made an entire industry price competitive? Sure wasn't the Post Office!

[/ QUOTE ]

the point is that in 1940, atomic bombs were about a decade or two away given advancing technology.

today, given nanotechnoly and it's advancement, solar power that is *cheaper* than fossil fuels is between 10 and 30 years depending on who you ask. I posted a link to one guy in this thread.

see the parallel?

[/ QUOTE ]

The goal was NOT to make the production of nuclear bombs price competitive, it was to MAKE nuclear bomb regardless of price. Do you see the differance?

Re: Subsidy = Crap
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For any of you newcomers out here that may be making the mistake of taking this post seriously, please google "Brazil" and "ethanol" and be educated

[/ QUOTE ]

I did and this is what I found in the first linky:

Was this:


Brazil's sugar cane-based industry is far more efficient than the U.S. maize-based industry. Brazilian distillers are able to produce ethanol for 22 cents per litre, compared with the 30 cents per liter for corn-based ethanol.[6] Sugarcane cultivation requires a tropical or subtropical climate, with a minimum of 600 mm (24 in) of annual rainfall. Sugarcane is one of the most efficient photosynthesizers in the plant kingdom, able to convert up to 2% of incident solar energy into biomass. Ethanol is produced by yeast fermentation of the sugar extracted from sugar cane. Sugarcane production in the United States occurs in Florida, Louisiana, Hawaii, and Texas. In prime growing regions, such as Hawaii, sugarcane can produce 20 kg for each square meter exposed to the sun.

U.S. corn-derived ethanol costs 30% more because the corn starch must first be converted to sugar before being distilled into alcohol. Unfortunately, despite this cost differential in production, in contrast to Japan and Sweden, the U.S. does not import Brazilian ethanol because of strict U.S. trade barriers (tariffs) corresponding to a levy of a 54-cent per gallon. These are promoted by the powerful American sugar lobby, which does not want a competitor to high-fructose corn syrup, and domestic sugar interests.


Any chance of a transfer of wealth to U.S. farmers and U.S. sugar growers with a protective tariff that amounts to a subsidy more or less?

[ QUOTE ]
Felix and those of his ilk post EXACTLY like shills for the oil companies whose mission is to engage in a massive wealth transfer from consumers and other industries to big oil, to the ultimate detriment of the country as a whole

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah the oil robber baron argument. Except that the U.S. public owns oil companys more or less.

Edit:

For new members of this forum, EliotR likes to parrott the liberal, Democratic party talking points as in his oil company rant. When I say the public owns oil companys I mean that the shares are owned by instutions like mutual funds, pension accounts, etc. Stuff people put there money in for retirement and such. Here's an article that appeared in the NYTimes about who owns oil companies:

What Is an Oil Company, Anyway?

Are we angry, then, at the owners of the oil companies? Maybe, but then it's self-hatred. Roughly 41 percent of Exxon Mobil stock is owned by retirement funds, private, public (federal, state and local) and individual retirement accounts. In other words, by us.

It is demonstrable that many retirement funds hold a great deal of oil stocks, including Exxon Mobil. Of the other owners, the largest holdings by far are at mutual funds and exchange-traded funds — generally vehicles for middle-class investors and retirees.

No individuals own more than 1 percent of the stock, and the largest single personal holding, representing far less than one-tenth of 1 percent of the company, is owned by Lee R. Raymond, the retired chief executive, who took the company through some very rough sailing to arrive at its present, fairly secure position.

ONE of the largest holders is the College Retirement Equities Fund, for higher-education teachers and others. Are we angry at them? If teachers get a bigger retirement because oil company profits are up, are we sad?



[/ QUOTE ]

You think you are so smart with all your facts and figures and logic. Well let me tell you something. YOU ARE!!!

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Weather Channel Founder calls Global Warming Biggest Scam in History

Discuss....

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain why I should care about his opinion.



Lots of scientists saying man made global warming is a very likely possibilty = irrational cultist conspiracy

One guy says it isnt = must be true.

Who is it who is being cultist and irrational?

[/ QUOTE ]

One guy?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119387567378878423.html

http://sitewave.net/news/s49p1083.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/warming/debate/singer.html

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/s...bed2f6&k=0

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21542564-421,00.html

http://sitewave.net/news/s49p1835.htm#Message5954


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/13/scienc...and&emc=rss

http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?ide=3

Cliffs: Man produces less than 1% of green house gases and there is no proof that I can see showing that man is the cause of global warming. I would like to see some proof showing how less than 1% of green house gases is warming the earth anymore then it would be anyway. If you can prove that then show me how man would ever be able to cut production enough to have any measurable effect.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in History
 

I just read a really great book on this topic: Cool It, by Bjorn Lomborg.

The basic premise of the book is that humans are causing some global warming, but the effects are not going to be as bad as we often hear about and the money involved in directly impacting global warming (i.e., reducing C02 emissions) could be spent in better ways to avoid the effects of global warming or in other ways entirely that would be more beneficial to humanity (i.e., save/improve more lives).

It's a well-written (it reads kind of like freakonomics), well researched book. I'm sure that many who disagree with it would classify it as slick propaganda and those who agree will think it's great.

However, if anyone has any interest in this issue, no matter what their opinion might be, it would be a useful endeavor to become familar with the arugments laid out in the book.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
The goal was NOT to make the production of nuclear bombs price competitive, it was to MAKE nuclear bomb regardless of price. Do you see the differance?

[/ QUOTE ]

it was to solve a technologically solvable problem.

maybe space race was better analogy.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in History
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just read a really great book on this topic: Cool It, by Bjorn Lomborg.

The basic premise of the book is that humans are causing some global warming, but the effects are not going to be as bad as we often hear about and the money involved in directly impacting global warming (i.e., reducing C02 emissions) could be spent in better ways to avoid the effects of global warming or in other ways entirely that would be more beneficial to humanity (i.e., save/improve more lives).

It's a well-written (it reads kind of like freakonomics), well researched book. I'm sure that many who disagree with it would classify it as slick propaganda and those who agree will think it's great.

However, if anyone has any interest in this issue, no matter what their opinion might be, it would be a useful endeavor to become familar with the arugments laid out in the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bjorn gets my respect. He's been on both sides in his life and more than most folks, he can see the BS.

My own test on climate change is simple. If you announce your certainty you have announced your ignorance. If you're certain that funding a specific item is in everyone's best interest, I'm certain you don't understand cost/benefit analysis at best. At worst you're a simple crook.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The goal was NOT to make the production of nuclear bombs price competitive, it was to MAKE nuclear bomb regardless of price. Do you see the differance?

[/ QUOTE ]

it was to solve a technologically solvable problem.

maybe space race was better analogy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Government did not make space travel more cost effective. In fact a look at recent private endeavors in to space shows government did quite the opposite.

We CAN already produce energy from the sun! Oil is cheaper. The profit motive will insure companies explore ways to make solar more cost effective without Government interference. Did Government make computers more cost effective? Cell phones? Air travel? Over night delivery?

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
Government did not make space travel more cost effective. In fact a look at recent private endeavors in to space shows government did quite the opposite.

We CAN already produce energy from the sun! Oil is cheaper. The profit motive will insure companies explore ways to make solar more cost effective without Government interference. Did Government make computers more cost effective? Cell phones? Air travel? Over night delivery?

[/ QUOTE ]

you're confusing old solar tech with brand new nano solar tech. btw, the gov did get the computer industry started.

basically my point is that nano solar tech guys say they are gonna get there. no question about it. I'm just saying throwing money at the problem is better than throwing money away.

also if you hate the sun or whatever, you could make the same argument that the gov should do a lot (cut regulatory b.s. for one) to go nuclear, which would also cut CO2.

my point is that giving china money to buy their carbon credits won't reduce worldwide CO2, which is supposedly the problem, and it will cost a bunch of money.

but let me ask you this; in 5 years if solar has become cost competitive like the guy in the article says, would you want the government to tax you and give the money to china, or would you want the gov to do stuff to promote solar power?

see my point?

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

GW is a subset of religion

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Government did not make space travel more cost effective. In fact a look at recent private endeavors in to space shows government did quite the opposite.

We CAN already produce energy from the sun! Oil is cheaper. The profit motive will insure companies explore ways to make solar more cost effective without Government interference. Did Government make computers more cost effective? Cell phones? Air travel? Over night delivery?

[/ QUOTE ]

you're confusing old solar tech with brand new nano solar tech. btw, the gov did get the computer industry started.

basically my point is that nano solar tech guys say they are gonna get there. no question about it. I'm just saying throwing money at the problem is better than throwing money away.

also if you hate the sun or whatever, you could make the same argument that the gov should do a lot (cut regulatory b.s. for one) to go nuclear, which would also cut CO2.

my point is that giving china money to buy their carbon credits won't reduce worldwide CO2, which is supposedly the problem, and it will cost a bunch of money.

but let me ask you this; in 5 years if solar has become cost competitive like the guy in the article says, would you want the government to tax you and give the money to china, or would you want the gov to do stuff to promote solar power?

see my point?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think government should redistribute wealth in an ineffecent manner. I don't see examples of where government made industries more effecient, the profit motive does that best.

The idea sounds great, throw a bunch of money at a problem and fix it. I don't see evidence of where government has done this, take your pick, poverty, health care, education, crime, drugs or Iraq. All great innovations that improved our lives were created by the profit motive and not Government. Look at all the private money flowing in to nano solar. It doesn't need government funding, as long as people think they can make money, it will be funded.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
All great innovations that improved our lives were created by the profit motive

[/ QUOTE ]

computers weren't.

but even if solar were price competitive in 5 years, it would still take a ton of money to switch over.

I mean, the premise is that the entire earth is being destroyed by CO2. having said that it seems logical that if you accept that premise that you should do everything you can to get off fossil fuels and onto non CO2 emitting energy. that's all I'm saying. the fact that the global climate *answer* has nothing at all to do with non CO2 energy you have to admit is mighty suspicious and supports the theory that global warming is a hoax.

I mean look at france. most of electricity there is generated by nuclear power. so if the threat were real and a real solution were wanted, countries would at least discuss building more nuke plants to get off of oil/coal, at least for electricity generation.

I mean, even if you accept the premise that nuclear plants are unsafe, radioactive waste a problem, etc., what's that compared to the fact that THE ENTIRE PLANET IS BEING DESTROYED RIGHT NOW BY MANMADE CO2. WE MUST DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO SAVE OURSELVES except build nuclear plants cause they make us nervous and they got bad press and jane fonda made a movie ... ok, that makes sense.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All great innovations that improved our lives were created by the profit motive

[/ QUOTE ]

computers weren't.

but even if solar were price competitive in 5 years, it would still take a ton of money to switch over.

I mean, the premise is that the entire earth is being destroyed by CO2. having said that it seems logical that if you accept that premise that you should do everything you can to get off fossil fuels and onto non CO2 emitting energy. that's all I'm saying. the fact that the global climate *answer* has nothing at all to do with non CO2 energy you have to admit is mighty suspicious and supports the theory that global warming is a hoax.

I mean look at france. most of electricity there is generated by nuclear power. so if the threat were real and a real solution were wanted, countries would at least discuss building more nuke plants to get off of oil/coal, at least for electricity generation.

I mean, even if you accept the premise that nuclear plants are unsafe, radioactive waste a problem, etc., what's that compared to the fact that THE ENTIRE PLANET IS BEING DESTROYED RIGHT NOW BY MANMADE CO2. WE MUST DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO SAVE OURSELVES except build nuclear plants cause they make us nervous and they got bad press and jane fonda made a movie ... ok, that makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't fathom anyone would think anything other than the profit motive led us to the great developments of the computer. IBM, Intel, Microsoft?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer

I just don't see how you could think that the great computer developments of this country are due to the efforts of the US Government.


In terms of solar, if it is not price competitive it is not going to take the place of oil. The enormous profit potential from making solar price competitive will drive innovation without the need for government intervention.

Man produces less than 1% of CO2, I agree it is not an urgent pressing problem, for as you point out, if it were, nuclear plants would be being built like crazy.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't fathom anyone would think anything other than the profit motive led us to the great developments of the computer. IBM, Intel, Microsoft?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.politicsonline.com/blog/i.../al%20gore.jpg

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't fathom anyone would think anything other than the profit motive led us to the great developments of the computer. IBM, Intel, Microsoft?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's my understanding the big vaccuum computers of the 40's were built by government for government stuff, cause they were extremely expensive. I'm talking bout the origin of computers.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't fathom anyone would think anything other than the profit motive led us to the great developments of the computer. IBM, Intel, Microsoft?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's my understanding the big vaccuum computers of the 40's were built by government for government stuff, cause they were extremely expensive. I'm talking bout the origin of computers.

[/ QUOTE ]

The act of making computers price competitive for business and consumers was driven by the profit motive. We already have solar, its just not competitive. If there is a way to make solar cheaper than oil the market will find a way without Government intervention. If throwing money at a problem without regard to profits could solve problems then the $6.1 trillion spent in this country to fight poverty would have made a dent in poverty.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
We already have solar, its just not competitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, we don't have nanotech solar. maybe you're missing my point about nanotechnology and how it is 10 years old or whatever.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We already have solar, its just not competitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, we don't have nanotech solar. maybe you're missing my point about nanotechnology and how it is 10 years old or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point, we just disagree how to get there. Here is a good article that discusses the money flowing in to nanotech.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...UG7IDL1AF1.DTL

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
I see your point, we just disagree how to get there. Here is a good article that discusses the money flowing in to nanotech.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...UG7IDL1AF1.DTL

[/ QUOTE ]

well maybe the better expression of my point was that if mmgw was true and the dangers true then nuke plants would be being planned and built right now.

also the article I quick added up he money it's less than 0.25 billion. US spent what, 4000 billion on iraq war so far?

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see your point, we just disagree how to get there. Here is a good article that discusses the money flowing in to nanotech.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...UG7IDL1AF1.DTL

[/ QUOTE ]

well maybe the better expression of my point was that if mmgw was true and the dangers true then nuke plants would be being planned and built right now.

also the article I quick added up he money it's less than 0.25 billion. US spent what, 4000 billion on iraq war so far?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess where we disagree is if the US spent $4 trillion on nanotech solar would it be commercially viable sooner and would the benifits of earlier development outweigh the cost? I just don't think the Governemnt throwing money at a problem is going to solve it. I support the Iraq War, but others may argue the $4 trillion spent has not solved the problem.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

The Weather Channel is the biggest scam in history.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

It amazes me that global warming gets such wide acceptance on a site full of people who ought to understand the danger of drawing conclusions from the swings of a largely random system.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
It amazes me that global warming gets such wide acceptance on a site full of people who ought to understand the danger of drawing conclusions from the swings of a largely random system.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think most people on this site understand this even as it relates to poker? Hell, I've been playing for a living for 4 years and still have a hard time emotionally with variance.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
It amazes me that global warming gets such wide acceptance on a site full of people who ought to understand the danger of drawing conclusions from the swings of a largely random system.

[/ QUOTE ] I've never before (well, in the last 4-5 years [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) seen so many people who don't accept global warming in one place, if that makes you feel better.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It amazes me that global warming gets such wide acceptance on a site full of people who ought to understand the danger of drawing conclusions from the swings of a largely random system.

[/ QUOTE ] I've never before (well, in the last 4-5 years [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) seen so many people who don't accept without questioning the most extreme predictions of global warming alarmists in one place, if that makes you feel better.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All great innovations that improved our lives were created by the profit motive

[/ QUOTE ]

computers weren't.

but even if solar were price competitive in 5 years, it would still take a ton of money to switch over.

I mean, the premise is that the entire earth is being destroyed by CO2. having said that it seems logical that if you accept that premise that you should do everything you can to get off fossil fuels and onto non CO2 emitting energy. that's all I'm saying. the fact that the global climate *answer* has nothing at all to do with non CO2 energy you have to admit is mighty suspicious and supports the theory that global warming is a hoax.

I mean look at france. most of electricity there is generated by nuclear power. so if the threat were real and a real solution were wanted, countries would at least discuss building more nuke plants to get off of oil/coal, at least for electricity generation.

I mean, even if you accept the premise that nuclear plants are unsafe, radioactive waste a problem, etc., what's that compared to the fact that THE ENTIRE PLANET IS BEING DESTROYED RIGHT NOW BY MANMADE CO2. WE MUST DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO SAVE OURSELVES except build nuclear plants cause they make us nervous and they got bad press and jane fonda made a movie ... ok, that makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't fathom anyone would think anything other than the profit motive led us to the great developments of the computer. IBM, Intel, Microsoft?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer

I just don't see how you could think that the great computer developments of this country are due to the efforts of the US Government.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I'm not sure how you got that conclusion.

The two most famous vacuum tube computers were ENIAC and Colossus both of which were WWII military projects. They showed people that computers could have practical and highly important applications and were much more than toys. The biggest revolutions in computing hardware were the transistors (invented by a professor in Berlin) and the development of high quality integrated circuits (thanks to NASA).

The basic building blocks of the computer industry were laid out by university professors, wartime, and cold war projects. Then it was easy for business to take over and push innovation to new levels. But even today many very important and basic advancements still occur at the university level.

Sorry, but I highly doubt the computer would be anywhere near where it is today without government $$$$$. It's silly and grossly ignorant to claim government and universities made no contributions. There is even an article on CNET titled "How NASA helped invent Silicon Valley".
http://www.news.com/How-NASA-helped-...3-6211034.html

This "guvment can do no good" stuff has been debated ad nauseum and is just plain ignorant.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
Man produces less than 1% of green house gases and there is no proof that I can see showing that man is the cause of global warming. I would like to see some proof showing how less than 1% of green house gases is warming the earth anymore then it would be anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This argument is silly. Simple isotope measurements (among many other tools) prove beyond any doubt that fossil fuel based carbon is flooding the atmosphere. Ph.D.s that use this argument are simply trying to take advantage of those that dont understand 100 level geology and chemistry. Op-Eds of major newspapers are crap. Try finding a major scientific organization that supports your links. There are hundreds on the planet and not one of them will. Try doing some background searches on some of your experts. btw the OISM (you linked to at least one of their experts) is infamous for their "tobacco doesn't cause cancer" work.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well I'm not sure how you got that conclusion.

The two most famous vacuum tube computers were ENIAC and Colossus both of which were WWII military projects. They showed people that computers could have practical and highly important applications and were much more than toys. The biggest revolutions in computing hardware were the transistors (invented by a professor in Berlin) and the development of high quality integrated circuits (thanks to NASA).

The basic building blocks of the computer industry were laid out by university professors, wartime, and cold war projects. Then it was easy for business to take over and push innovation to new levels. But even today many very important and basic advancements still occur at the university level.

Sorry, but I highly doubt the computer would be anywhere near where it is today without government $$$$$. It's silly and grossly ignorant to claim government and universities made no contributions. There is even an article on CNET titled "How NASA helped invent Silicon Valley".
http://www.news.com/How-NASA-helped-...3-6211034.html

This "guvment can do no good" stuff has been debated ad nauseum and is just plain ignorant.


[/ QUOTE ]

yeah what he said.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

The government could build an escalator to the clouds and greatly improve the escalator industry too. The profit motive and free markets create innovation and change, not Government. To call someone ignorant in an argument does not prove the argument. We sent a man to the moon, why doesn’t everyone have a little personal space ship to take them to the moon today if Government spending on a product can create an industry like you said they did with computers? Government did not invent the computer. Their demand for more computing power sparked innovation but without the profit motive that innovation would have died.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

Could the government ever have possibly predicted what their investment in the computer would turn into? Did they have any inkling of what they were getting involved in when they started this research? This strikes me as the government getting somewhat lucky rather than a virtue of government research just because it is government research. There is nothing about this that private funding could not have accomplished. If you want to extol the benefits of government funded research you have to weigh it against the costs.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
The profit motive and free markets create innovation and change, not Government.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya the nuclear bomb could never have been invented by a government project. You are totally correct.

[ QUOTE ]
To call someone ignorant in an argument does not prove the argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no intention of proving what would of happened if none of the government research programs occurred. Getting into an argument like that would be futile. I simply showed that your understanding of computer history is on the level of gross ignorance. And if you don't understand history how could you possibly predict the future?

[ QUOTE ]
Government did not invent the computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the government invent anything? Charles Babbage, a Cambridge professor, is often accredited for inventing the programmable computer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Babbage

[ QUOTE ]
Their demand for more computing power sparked innovation but without the profit motive that innovation would have died.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, nothing compares to profit industry. That's why you linked to Britannica instead of wikipedia. :-p

The world is not black and white, good or evil. Different talents for different folks. Altruistic research and profit motivated research both have their place. Until you learn that basic concept you will be blind.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
Could the government ever have possibly predicted what their investment in the computer would turn into?

[/ QUOTE ]

The idea of robots with computer brains becoming alive dates back to at least 1920 so the answer to your pessimistically worded question is an obvious "yes".

[ QUOTE ]
Did they have any inkling of what they were getting involved in when they started this research?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again the answer to this highly pessimistic question is "yes". Especially with the Apollo program

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The profit motive and free markets create innovation and change, not Government.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya the nuclear bomb could never have been invented by a government project. You are totally correct.

[ QUOTE ]
To call someone ignorant in an argument does not prove the argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no intention of proving what would of happened if none of the government research programs occurred. Getting into an argument like that would be futile. I simply showed that your understanding of computer history is on the level of gross ignorance. And if you don't understand history how could you possibly predict the future?

[ QUOTE ]
Government did not invent the computer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the government invent anything? Charles Babbage, a Cambridge professor, is often accredited for inventing the programmable computer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Babbage

[ QUOTE ]
Their demand for more computing power sparked innovation but without the profit motive that innovation would have died.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, nothing compares to profit industry. That's why you linked to Britannica instead of wikipedia. :-p

The world is not black and white, good or evil. Different talents for different folks. Altruistic research and profit motivated research both have their place. Until you learn that basic concept you will be blind.

[/ QUOTE ]


Greed is good. Until you learn that point you will continue to work for the man. My guess is you work for a wage and vote Democrat.

When Government directs resources it is ineffecient no matter what good comes of it. Government does not allocate resorces effeciently or to the highest and best use. Government takes money by force and uses it a way that it would not be used in a competitive market.


I don't think you are blind or ignorant, your life experiences are simply differant than mine. When you call someone blind and ignorant and then say their is no black and white etc., I hope you realize you contradict yourself. Do you see why?

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
Greed is good. Until you learn that point you will continue to work for the man.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you learn economics from Hollywood?

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is you work for a wage and vote Democrat.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 3 parties (Libs, Dems, and Republicans) you guessed which one I vote for the least.

[ QUOTE ]
When Government directs resources it is ineffecient no matter what good comes of it. Government does not allocate resorces effeciently or to the highest and best use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you can't get your historical facts right then making unsupported absolute ideological proclamations certainly seems to be the way to go. I'm not denying that there is waste in government. There certainly is. But your absolute decrees that government can never do something as well as or better than private industry is just silly. Your own examples in this thread should prove that.

[ QUOTE ]
Government takes money by force and uses it a way that it would not be used in a competitive market.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the case of computers that was apparently a very good thing. According to a few topics I read on the subject private industry supported discrete circuits and not integrated circuits due to cheaper short term costs. Private industry rarely looks into the future beyond timelines that are profitable under current patent laws.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you are blind or ignorant, your life experiences are simply differant than mine. When you call someone blind and ignorant and then say their is no black and white etc., I hope you realize you contradict yourself. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I should rephrase. Life is not a binary black and white. Everything is situational. But arguments put forward in your posts do in fact put you pretty far in the dark side of ignorant when it comes to the history of computing, geology and basic physics. Your argument that:

I can't fathom anyone would think anything other than the profit motive led us to the great developments of the computer.

Displays that pretty well. The development of the IC was about weight and power which was required for NASA missions. Monetary profit of some corporation had nothing to do with the decision to go for ICs. Development of the IC was going to happen "at all costs".

Maybe you should read up on history a little more before you start preaching the binary "greed is good, guvment is evil" ideology.

you can have the last word. I doubt I will responding to this thread again.

Re: Weather Channel Founder says\"Global Warming is Biggest Scam in His
 

[ QUOTE ]
.... Displays that pretty well. The development of the IC was about weight and power which was required for NASA missions. Monetary profit of some corporation had nothing to do with the decision to go for ICs. Development of the IC was going to happen "at all costs". ....

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree with your points here, I have some serious doubts that government agencies are up to tasks like this today. My pessimism stems from working many years for defense contractors and DOE funded national lab. Could be convinced otherwise though.