Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
True. Good points. I wonder how slavery ended. Did it end by the slaves breaking the law and running away? Or did it end with a political movement, and an amendment to the constitution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slavery ended in every other industrial nation before it ended in the US because it was uneconomical to continue using slaves instead of free labor. Tariffs and laws in the US kept the institution of slavery alive for several decades longer that it would have with a handful of legislative acts (or lack there off).

On the other hand you totally ignore that Slavery in the US existed for CENTURIES, your position seems to be that those slaves who lived during those times should have never attempted to run away because "breaking the law is wrong". Of course you would ignore the issue because eventually the descendants of these slaves were granted their freedom and that makes it OK for you to condemn those slaves who did escape and those people who did help them. Your position is one of the most vile imaginable, holding up words on scraps of paper as more important than empathy, freedom, and life itself.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

Im not surprised, didnt even read the OP. I suppose the true agressor got 5000 lashes or something amirite?

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

Who's up for a draft so we can invade Saudi Arabia, get a regime change, and load up on oil. Let's gogogogo!

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Brutality seems independent of Christianity, while positively correlated to Muslim ones. Of course we could not be using other variables, like poverty, development, so on.

But it does suggest a causative link.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if there really is such a strong correlation that we can infer causation, why not go ahead and cite some kind of study instead of just hand-wavingly asserting it?

I mean, you seem to understand there are other variables at play, but you then claim there's actually a suggested "causative link". Do you have any kind of formal study you could provide a link to, or is this just a hunch of yours?

I'd say we should first go ahead and prove there's actually a statistically significant correlation to begin with, instead of just assuming ante hoc it actually exists. Then we can go about deciding if there's actually anything causative to be inferred. Assuming there's actually a correlation, then doing a bit of head-scratching to see if the assumed correlation suggests a causative link is putting the cart before the horse.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
True. Good points. I wonder how slavery ended. Did it end by the slaves breaking the law and running away? Or did it end with a political movement, and an amendment to the constitution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slavery ended in every other industrial nation before it ended in the US because it was uneconomical to continue using slaves instead of free labor. Tariffs and laws in the US kept the institution of slavery alive for several decades longer that it would have with a handful of legislative acts (or lack there off).

On the other hand you totally ignore that Slavery in the US existed for CENTURIES, your position seems to be that those slaves who lived during those times should have never attempted to run away because "breaking the law is wrong". Of course you would ignore the issue because eventually the descendants of these slaves were granted their freedom and that makes it OK for you to condemn those slaves who did escape and those people who did help them. Your position is one of the most vile imaginable, holding up words on scraps of paper as more important than empathy, freedom, and life itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, you brought up slavery. I thought it was an irrelivant example (and I wrote as much). There is a difference between the two examples. These women practice Islam. They don't revolt against it. How did women get rights in the United States? They proved that they deserved it; they said "Listen Bob, I know you're my husband, but I'm not going to suck your dick anymore unless you get the law changed." And what did Bob say? "LETS CHANGE THE LAWS!" Women had no say in this country either until the 1920's, yet they managed to get the laws changed.

And please don't make unfactual assumptions about my character as if you know me, based on a few sentences I wrote, based on a ridiculous example you brought up.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im not surprised, didnt even read the OP. I suppose the true agressor got 5000 lashes or something amirite?

[/ QUOTE ]

Originally they got 1-5 years. It was upped to 2-9 years.
The victim is Shi'a.
The rapists are Sunni.
Sunni run the country.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
These women practice Islam. They don't revolt against it.

[/ QUOTE ]


This woman was sentenced to 70 lashes for sitting in a car with a man not related to her. This is against islamic law, unless she was
A. Ignorant of the law in Saudi Arabia or
B. Hoping to be punished for it

she is de facto rebelling against that tenet of that religion.

[ QUOTE ]
They proved that they deserved it; they said "Listen Bob, I know you're my husband, but I'm not going to suck your dick anymore unless you get the law changed." And what did Bob say? "LETS CHANGE THE LAWS!" Women had no say in this country either until the 1920's, yet they managed to get the laws changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of this changes the fact that women prior to 1920 in the US lived under unjust laws, and that you state people living under unjust laws should not violate them because you are against breaking the law.

[ QUOTE ]

First of all, you brought up slavery. I thought it was an irrelivant example (and I wrote as much).

[/ QUOTE ]

So why is slavery an irrelevant example? Would a slave in 1794 have been wrong to take a chance to escape in your opinion? Would you condemn another for helping him escape because he was breaking the law?

[ QUOTE ]

And please don't make unfactual assumptions about my character as if you know me

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Your position is one of the most vile imaginable, holding up words on scraps of paper as more important than empathy, freedom, and life itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I specifically attacked your position, said nothing about your character.


[ QUOTE ]
, based on a few sentences I wrote, based on a ridiculous example you brought up.

[/ QUOTE ]

My ridiculous example ACTUALLY EXISTED. And if you read enough history you will come across passages written by people who take a very similar position to you, people who condemned both slavery and the slave who tried to escape, holding up the "rule of law" as justification of the latter.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

Not that im supporting the saudi law in anyway, but i think its worth mentioning that had she been following the law she would not have been raped.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These women practice Islam. They don't revolt against it.

[/ QUOTE ]


This woman was sentenced to 70 lashes for sitting in a car with a man not related to her. This is against islamic law, unless she was
A. Ignorant of the law in Saudi Arabia or
B. Hoping to be punished for it

she is de facto rebelling against that tenet of that religion.

[ QUOTE ]
They proved that they deserved it; they said "Listen Bob, I know you're my husband, but I'm not going to suck your dick anymore unless you get the law changed." And what did Bob say? "LETS CHANGE THE LAWS!" Women had no say in this country either until the 1920's, yet they managed to get the laws changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of this changes the fact that women prior to 1920 in the US lived under unjust laws, and that you state people living under unjust laws should not violate them because you are against breaking the law.

[ QUOTE ]

First of all, you brought up slavery. I thought it was an irrelivant example (and I wrote as much).

[/ QUOTE ]

So why is slavery an irrelevant example? Would a slave in 1794 have been wrong to take a chance to escape in your opinion? Would you condemn another for helping him escape because he was breaking the law?

[ QUOTE ]

And please don't make unfactual assumptions about my character as if you know me

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Your position is one of the most vile imaginable, holding up words on scraps of paper as more important than empathy, freedom, and life itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I specifically attacked your position, said nothing about your character.


[ QUOTE ]
, based on a few sentences I wrote, based on a ridiculous example you brought up.

[/ QUOTE ]

My ridiculous example ACTUALLY EXISTED. And if you read enough history you will come across passages written by people who take a very similar position to you, people who condemned both slavery and the slave who tried to escape, holding up the "rule of law" as justification of the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
These women practice Islam. They don't revolt against it.

[/ QUOTE ]


This woman was sentenced to 70 lashes for sitting in a car with a man not related to her. This is against islamic law, unless she was
A. Ignorant of the law in Saudi Arabia or
B. Hoping to be punished for it

she is de facto rebelling against that tenet of that religion.

[ QUOTE ]
They proved that they deserved it; they said "Listen Bob, I know you're my husband, but I'm not going to suck your dick anymore unless you get the law changed." And what did Bob say? "LETS CHANGE THE LAWS!" Women had no say in this country either until the 1920's, yet they managed to get the laws changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

None of this changes the fact that women prior to 1920 in the US lived under unjust laws, and that you state people living under unjust laws should not violate them because you are against breaking the law.

[ QUOTE ]

First of all, you brought up slavery. I thought it was an irrelivant example (and I wrote as much).

[/ QUOTE ]

So why is slavery an irrelevant example? Would a slave in 1794 have been wrong to take a chance to escape in your opinion? Would you condemn another for helping him escape because he was breaking the law?

[ QUOTE ]

And please don't make unfactual assumptions about my character as if you know me

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Your position is one of the most vile imaginable, holding up words on scraps of paper as more important than empathy, freedom, and life itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I specifically attacked your position, said nothing about your character.


[ QUOTE ]
, based on a few sentences I wrote, based on a ridiculous example you brought up.

[/ QUOTE ]

My ridiculous example ACTUALLY EXISTED. And if you read enough history you will come across passages written by people who take a very similar position to you, people who condemned both slavery and the slave who tried to escape, holding up the "rule of law" as justification of the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if there is a trick to doing the multiple qoutes thing that you did, but if there is, I don't know it, and if there isn't, I don't have the time, I'm just gonna respond point by point, without qoutes. I know it's not as easy to read.

I don't think breaking a law is equal to revolting against the system. I speed all the time, breaking traffic laws; do I consider myself a revolutionary? A rebel? No, I'm just an [censored], breaking the law. Would I speed if I was going to get 200 lashes? lol, no.

Yes, the women in America lived under unjust laws...The point was, they took action to change the laws, they got the constitution amended. Getting the constitution amended is not breaking the law - I'm not sure what you are talking about here.

A slave would not have been wrong to attempt to escape. I'm not 100% sure how you are equating a muslim woman riding in a car with an unkown man to escaping. How was she escaping? She wasn't, she was breaking the law and staying in the system. How does that help anything? No escaping being done. Amount of escaping = 0.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not that im supporting the saudi law in anyway, but i think its worth mentioning that had she been following the law she would not have been raped.

[/ QUOTE ]

just an ugly comment all around

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
A slave would not have been wrong to attempt to escape.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was against the law to escape. the slave would have been punished.

it was against the law to carsit with a man. she was punished.

see it?

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A slave would not have been wrong to attempt to escape.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was against the law to escape. the slave would have been punished.

it was against the law to carsit with a man. she was punished.

see it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is against the law to gang rape a woman. They were punished.

There is a key difference between the slave trying to free himself and her breaking whatever stupid law she was breaking. She wasn't breaking the law in an act of civil disobedience. She wasn't breaking the law as her only means of escape. She was just breaking the law. It's not like she's the Rosa Parks of Saudi Arabia.


A side question, how, if in any way, should the fact that she was the victim of a horrible crime affect her punishment (assume that the underlying law that she broke was a just law)? Is it a relevant factor at all?

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]

I don't know if there is a trick to doing the multiple qoutes thing that you did,

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It's

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
easy

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
just

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
do

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
this

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A slave would not have been wrong to attempt to escape.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was against the law to escape. the slave would have been punished.

it was against the law to carsit with a man. she was punished.

see it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how your statements contradict mine (at least what you qouted)

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A slave would not have been wrong to attempt to escape.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was against the law to escape. the slave would have been punished.

it was against the law to carsit with a man. she was punished.

see it?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is against the law to gang rape a woman. They were punished.

There is a key difference between the slave trying to free himself and her breaking whatever stupid law she was breaking. She wasn't breaking the law in an act of civil disobedience. She wasn't breaking the law as her only means of escape. She was just breaking the law. It's not like she's the Rosa Parks of Saudi Arabia.


A side question, how, if in any way, should the fact that she was the victim of a horrible crime affect her punishment (assume that the underlying law that she broke was a just law)? Is it a relevant factor at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

That paragraph is what I was trying to say with my speeding analogy. you did a better job.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with Noahxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.

That's their law, she lives there, she has to follow it, or get it changed through their system. Not break it.

Do I like the law? Do I think it's a good law? Obviously no.

If she doesn't like it, she should come to America.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gold star post.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

is it true or not?

i was just stating a fact, not drawing conclusions

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

Quote:
A slave would not have been wrong to attempt to escape.



it was against the law to escape. the slave would have been punished.

it was against the law to carsit with a man. she was punished.

see it?



I don't see how your statements contradict mine (at least what you qouted)


[/ QUOTE ]

well, it was wrong for a slave to escape. if it wasn't wrong the slave wouldn't be punished. I mean, speaking practically.

If you're talking about what *should* be then you know that's a different thing. I mean, the thing is that both laws are things that you disagree with. so they're similar situations.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's their law, she lives there, she has to follow it, or get it changed through their system. Not break it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slave from the 1840s: Man slavery sucks, we need to get rid of it.

Taso: Yeah, you should tell your congressmen to outlaw it

Slave: I don't have a congressman, slaves can't vote

Taso: Damn, that sucks, you should totally write a letter to a newspaper talking about how [censored] slavery is

Slave: Umm, dude, my master forbids us to read and write, and beats us if we try to learn.

Taso: Damn that really sucks, you should move somewhere that slavery isn't allowed.

Slave: To do that I would have to break the law, slaves aren't allowed to run away + the closest places without slavery have fugitive slave laws where the citizens there are required to return us.

Taso: Damn, that sucks, well keep on keeping on man, just don't break these unjust laws, try working within the system that set up these laws and one day, hopefully your grandchildren won't be slaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY the point he was making!

Am I wrong? I thought it was pretty clear he was alluding to all of those statist "if you don't like taxation, work within the system to change it" arguments we see here in every other thread.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

Whether the law is "morally right" according to 2007 American standards is irrelivant in both examples. I<emphasis, think both laws are wrong, and therefore, that a slave would not have been in the wrong to attempt an escape, and get away from the system that persecutes him/her.

I think the laws against women in Saudi Arabia are wrong, and there fore a woman living there would not be in the wrong to try and escape. This is not what the woman did. She broke the law and stayed in the system.

In both cases, if caught, the violator will face penalties, duh?


And pvn, I don't know what you're talking about...And I can't tell which posistion you are taking, lol.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

While it is true, if she was willingly riding in that car, that she was breaking the law, most of you seem to be missing a key point here about Islam, or at least the way middle-eastern Islamic males view women.

They view women as a temptation, and males as unable to restrain their primitive urges even if they shouldn't act on same. Thus they require women to cover up. In fact they view it as more of a moral failure for a woman to "tempt" a man by immodest dress, than they do for such a man to rape that woman. Thus they view women who do dress in such an "immodest" fashion, particularly most western non-Moslem women, as little better than whores who are "asking for it".

When you understand the above underlying attitudes, which seem not to be inconsistent with the Koran, then you can understand this situation from the Saudi religious Islamic male perspective.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whether the law is "morally right" according to 2007 American standards is irrelivant in both examples. I<emphasis, think both laws are wrong, and therefore, that a slave would not have been in the wrong to attempt an escape, and get away from the system that persecutes him/her.

I think the laws against women in Saudi Arabia are wrong, and there fore a woman living there would not be in the wrong to try and escape. This is not what the woman did. She broke the law and stayed in the system.

In both cases, if caught, the violator will face penalties, duh?

[/ QUOTE ]

so youre saying the situations are not analogous? I think there's a logical problem arising because escaping in the slave example is part of the crime, where it is not in the woman's case, so I think if you bring that in the way you do it does break down. but theoreticaly a slave could forge his freedom papers or whatever and stay in the same society (maybe not talking about US), so then by your argument a slave who freed himself in this manner and stayed in the society (think roman empire where hard to go somewhwere else) would, by your judgement, be in the wrong, even though you think he would be right if he went to a different country/society.

so either it's a bad analogy or it's a good analogy and your treatment of it is illogical since you've got an escaped slave being both wrong and right in your prescriptive morality.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

Apparantly a man was also sentenced to 90 lashes in this case simply for being in the car alone with that woman, so at least they hand out their lashes to both men and women.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

Lashes are cruel and unusual.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

For me, the saliet points are:

1) A country that has a law that says allows a woman to be given 200 lashes for sitting in a car with the wrong person is a f*cked up place.

2) That this country is our strong ally puts a lie to our claim that a major concern of our foreign policy is the spreading democracy and human dignity.

3) Continuing our dependency on foreign oil is a tragedy politically, economically, and environmentally. It puts us in bed with the likes of Chavez, Ahmadinejad, Putin, the crew "running" Iraq, and the sheiks who think it's good policy to have the state decide who you can sit in a car with.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

For me, the salient points are:

1) There are a lot of posters willing to craft apologetics for a government that tortured a victim of gang rape because she was sitting in the car of an unrelated male.

2) See (1).

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Post deleted, not worth getting into.

[/ QUOTE ]


Why not get into it? We've discussed this before:

Muslim Cleric: Women Without a Headscarf Invite Sexual Assaults

And here's the lead paragraph from the NYT story linked to there:

"Australia’s top Muslim cleric has been barred from preaching for three months after he compared women who dress immodestly to meat that is left uncovered and then attracts cats."

So even if the cleric in the case above was disciplined by his fellow clerics, there is in fact a factual basis for asserting that the attitudes I discussed are prevalent.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Post deleted, not worth getting into.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever happened to the president's plan to get us less dependent on oil?

[/ QUOTE ]

He decided he'd rather be a whore for Saudi Arabia apparently. By all accounts that I've read, the Bush family, including dubya, is tight with the Saudi royal family. I find that disgraceful. I'm sick of the U.S. standing behind regimes like the Saudi's have.


To others, as far as being Saudi law so what? That doesn't make the Saudi's any more desirable as an ally.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But its still all relative. I mean, a lot of people were perfectly ok with slavery.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you see moral relativism as a slippery slope to sadism, you merely reveal yourself as scum. Do you see why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd hazard a guess what you're getting at is that they're picturing what they themselves would do but for the restraints of moral absolutes. But this goes wrong in two ways. First, it ignores the fact that people also observe what others do. Second, by applying the perjorative label "scum" you're still assuming an overarching morality.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]

A slave would not have been wrong to attempt to escape. I'm not 100% sure how you are equating a muslim woman riding in a car with an unkown man to escaping. How was she escaping? She wasn't, she was breaking the law and staying in the system. How does that help anything? No escaping being done. Amount of escaping = 0.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point here is that you said

[ QUOTE ]

That's their law, she lives there, she has to follow it, or get it changed through their system. Not break it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which can realistically only be interpreted as you believing that the rule of law is good for its own sake. That is what was the most objectionable part. The rest of your post is weak fluff trying to cover up the fact that you clearly wouldn't (and very few people would) condemn a person to live under an extremely repressive situation, and yet meanwhile you act as if its black and white, ie "the law is the law".

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever happened to the president's plan to get us less dependent on oil?

[/ QUOTE ]

He decided he'd rather be a whore for Saudi Arabia apparently. By all accounts that I've read, the Bush family, including dubya, is tight with the Saudi royal family. I find that disgraceful. I'm sick of the U.S. standing behind regimes like the Saudi's have.


To others, as far as being Saudi law so what? That doesn't make the Saudi's any more desirable as an ally.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG, Bush have been in office for almost 7 years and he havent yet been able to come up with a satisfactory alternative energy source that can compensate for the energy the US get from imported oil??? Lol, he must be so dumb.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's their law, she lives there, she has to follow it, or get it changed through their system. Not break it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slave from the 1840s: Man slavery sucks, we need to get rid of it.

Taso: Yeah, you should tell your congressmen to outlaw it

Slave: I don't have a congressman, slaves can't vote

Taso: Damn, that sucks, you should totally write a letter to a newspaper talking about how [censored] slavery is

Slave: Umm, dude, my master forbids us to read and write, and beats us if we try to learn.

Taso: Damn that really sucks, you should move somewhere that slavery isn't allowed.

Slave: To do that I would have to break the law, slaves aren't allowed to run away + the closest places without slavery have fugitive slave laws where the citizens there are required to return us.

Taso: Damn, that sucks, well keep on keeping on man, just don't break these unjust laws, try working within the system that set up these laws and one day, hopefully your grandchildren won't be slaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY the point he was making!

Am I wrong? I thought it was pretty clear he was alluding to all of those statist "if you don't like taxation, work within the system to change it" arguments we see here in every other thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, he's just making that argument. And in a situation in which it is even more absurd.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's their law, she lives there, she has to follow it, or get it changed through their system. Not break it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slave from the 1840s: Man slavery sucks, we need to get rid of it.

Taso: Yeah, you should tell your congressmen to outlaw it

Slave: I don't have a congressman, slaves can't vote

Taso: Damn, that sucks, you should totally write a letter to a newspaper talking about how [censored] slavery is

Slave: Umm, dude, my master forbids us to read and write, and beats us if we try to learn.

Taso: Damn that really sucks, you should move somewhere that slavery isn't allowed.

Slave: To do that I would have to break the law, slaves aren't allowed to run away + the closest places without slavery have fugitive slave laws where the citizens there are required to return us.

Taso: Damn, that sucks, well keep on keeping on man, just don't break these unjust laws, try working within the system that set up these laws and one day, hopefully your grandchildren won't be slaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY the point he was making!

Am I wrong? I thought it was pretty clear he was alluding to all of those statist "if you don't like taxation, work within the system to change it" arguments we see here in every other thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, he's just making that argument. And in a situation in which it is even more absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I figured that out from his later posts. I saw levels that didn't exist. :|

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

A slave would not have been wrong to attempt to escape. I'm not 100% sure how you are equating a muslim woman riding in a car with an unkown man to escaping. How was she escaping? She wasn't, she was breaking the law and staying in the system. How does that help anything? No escaping being done. Amount of escaping = 0.

[/ QUOTE ]

The whole point here is that you said

[ QUOTE ]

That's their law, she lives there, she has to follow it, or get it changed through their system. Not break it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which can realistically only be interpreted as you believing that the rule of law is good for its own sake. That is what was the most objectionable part. The rest of your post is weak fluff trying to cover up the fact that you clearly wouldn't (and very few people would) condemn a person to live under an extremely repressive situation, and yet meanwhile you act as if its black and white, ie "the law is the law".

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why I'm not coming off clearly here.

She lives there, she has to follow the law of the land.

The slave is trying to escape to get away from the society that makes laws against him.

The woman wasn't trying to get away from the society, she was just breaking their laws.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That's their law, she lives there, she has to follow it, or get it changed through their system. Not break it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slave from the 1840s: Man slavery sucks, we need to get rid of it.

Taso: Yeah, you should tell your congressmen to outlaw it

Slave: I don't have a congressman, slaves can't vote

Taso: Damn, that sucks, you should totally write a letter to a newspaper talking about how [censored] slavery is

Slave: Umm, dude, my master forbids us to read and write, and beats us if we try to learn.

Taso: Damn that really sucks, you should move somewhere that slavery isn't allowed.

Slave: To do that I would have to break the law, slaves aren't allowed to run away + the closest places without slavery have fugitive slave laws where the citizens there are required to return us.

Taso: Damn, that sucks, well keep on keeping on man, just don't break these unjust laws, try working within the system that set up these laws and one day, hopefully your grandchildren won't be slaves.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY the point he was making!

Am I wrong? I thought it was pretty clear he was alluding to all of those statist "if you don't like taxation, work within the system to change it" arguments we see here in every other thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, he's just making that argument. And in a situation in which it is even more absurd.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I figured that out from his later posts. I saw levels that didn't exist. :|

[/ QUOTE ]

(I have no idea if I'm the subject of any of the above posts, due to the use of "he" "his" and "he's" )

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
The woman wasn't trying to get away from the society, she was just breaking their laws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Women in Saudi-Arabia has about 0% chance of changing the system. For a woman in Saudi-Arabia to get out of the country without assistance from a close male family menber is also very hard. A woman is not allowed to leave her home unexcorted by a close family member, her trying to leave the country would probably lead to an even harsher punishment.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The woman wasn't trying to get away from the society, she was just breaking their laws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Women in Saudi-Arabia has about 0% chance of changing the system. For a woman in Saudi-Arabia to get out of the country without assistance from a close male family menber is also very hard. A woman is not allowed to leave her home unexcorted by a close family member, her trying to leave the country would probably lead to an even harsher punishment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell, they doubled her sentence just for pleading for justice. If she even thought about living somewhere where she wasn't oppressed they'd probably lop off one of her hands.

Re: Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't we have wonderful allies?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really despise those European allies who gave secret nuclear info to Khan so he could run back to Pakistan and build a bomb. Bastards!