Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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vhawk, i dunno. the mvp award is a regular season award, so its actually 1st-4th, and not 1st-4th (in each league). giving the mvp award to a player on a team that doesnt make the playoffs is like giving the world series mvp to a player on the losing team imo.

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Why couldn't the most valuable player in the WS be on the losing team?

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again, because baseball is a team game, your goal is to win

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So youre saying that he could put up the exact same numbers every year and yet his value would fluctuate depending on who pitches for the mets?

That makes sense not.

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Why? If he can put up 40 HR for 10 million, that is more valuable to his team than putting up 40 HR for 18 million, on just about any team except the Yankees. Because now they have 40 HR and a free 8 million to spend on more wins.

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This is a lot different than what I was saying. I was talking about value contributed to the team in the traditional sense of the award, not production per dollar. Obviously if a player puts up the exact same numbers but makes a different amount of money his relative "value" changes.

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Sorry I went back and edited my post, you are right I was reading you as saying something you werent.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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vhawk,
The problem with using salary is it means every MVP would be under 25.

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Right. It will always be a guy in his first three years not eligible for arbitration.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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vhawk,
The problem with using salary is it means every MVP would be under 25.

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Right, like I said, you'd have to modify it a bit. You couldnt just have a straight 1:1 ratio between performance and cost to determine your value. Twice as many HR is worth way more than twice as many dollars. But 38 year olds with huge albatross salaries really do crush some teams and so they should have to perform accordingly.

I'm just trying to salvage the MVP here, I think the obv solution is to ignore this stupid award and just give a "best player" award and stop even mentioning something as silly as MVP. But barring that I think there is some merit to focusing on financial value.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

Bill Conlin is a moron, and is a perfect example of how I picture the majority of sportswriters to be like.

vhawk,

I'm not digging your peformace:contract idea. As others said, reserve/arbitration players would always win, and even if you were able to account for that fairly, you're punishing guys who go out and get the best contract available. It would be unfair to punish A-Rod if he had swindled someone into giving him a $40m/year contract.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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Bill Conlin is a moron, and is a perfect example of how I picture the majority of sportswriters to be like.

vhawk,

I'm not digging your peformace:contract idea. As others said, reserve/arbitration players would always win, and even if you were able to account for that fairly, you're punishing guys who go out and get the best contract available. It would be unfair to punish A-Rod if he had swindled someone into giving him a $40m/year contract.

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Why would it be any more unfair than punishing a guy for taking a big deal with a team that is unlikely to make the playoffs? Or punishing a guy for remaining loyal to his small-market team that developed him and that has little chance to make the playoffs?

There are always going to be limitations and people who get penalized. At least in this scenario, we are penalizing guys who actually ARE doing something that hurts their team. Signing for an extra ten million really does hurt the team. DISCLAIMER: Not that I am ripping on these guys for getting every single penny, this isnt a bad thing, I'm just saying it clearly hurts the team more than working for peanuts would.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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One of those sportswriters, Bill Conlin of the Philadelphia Daily News, got into a email battle with the blog Ashburn Alley,

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Obvious 2p2 reference in that blog. I wonder if hes a poster.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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Wright was the best all-around player in the NL in 2007.

That's all.

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It's called "Most Valuable Player". Not "best all-around player."

Of the top 10 vote-getters, three were paid less than DW. Per baseball-reference.com:

Wright finished 4th, and earned $1.25M in 2007
Fielder finished 3rd, and earned a paltry $415K
Howard finished 5th, and earned $900K
Hanley finished 10th, and earned $402K

I know it's the MLB, and $800K is peanuts, but one could argue that at least Fielder and Howard were more "valuable" than Wright, who was paid 3 times as much money.

Rollins and Holliday were a close 1, 2. Rollins earned $8M, and Holliday earned $4.4M.

There are several ways to define the "MVP" award, and most of them suck. The award should be terminated.

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This is the kind of non-standard reasoning I can honestly get behind. When I think value, this is what goes through my mind. Its not IMPOSSIBLE for guys like Arod to be the best value but its pretty hard.

You'd have to make some amendments though, you'd have to establish some kind of minimum salary or service time, because otherwise its guys like Arod and Pujols trying to compete with every single rookie and 1 year service time guy who has a pretty decent bustout year. they make 20 times as much money, they arent going to provide twenty times as much value very often.

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If you are going to get into the value per dollar angle to this analysis, it might also be worth looking at the player's salary as a percentage of his team's payroll. A $5 million a year guy who is only slightly less valuable than a guy making $9 million a year might not necessarily be more valuable to his team if the $5 million guy is playing for the Devil Rays and the $9 million guy is playing for the Yanks.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

I love all these debates. Sportswriters pretend that there aren't stated criteria for the MVP because it lets them get away with the assorted retarded MVPs they've given out, but the BBWAA sets out the following:
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The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.

You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from 1 to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot. Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, and that includes pitchers and designated hitters.

Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration."

Team performance is not one of the listed criteria. The end.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

that isn't a bad idea tweety

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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I love all these debates. Sportswriters pretend that there aren't stated criteria for the MVP because it lets them get away with the assorted retarded MVPs they've given out, but the BBWAA sets out the following:
"
The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.

You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from 1 to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot. Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, and that includes pitchers and designated hitters.

Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration."

Team performance is not one of the listed criteria. The end.

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I was beginning to wonder if anyone else had read that. The most value is clearly defined to be the strongest offense and defense. Not some wishy washy thing about if his team is in contention at the end.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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Why would it be any more unfair than punishing a guy for taking a big deal with a team that is unlikely to make the playoffs? Or punishing a guy for remaining loyal to his small-market team that developed him and that has little chance to make the playoffs?

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? I don't think either of those things are fair either, and I never said as such? I don't think Ichiro or Hanley Ramirez should be "punished" for playing in Seattle or Florida.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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3. General character, grit, quiet strength, disposition, loyalty and effort.


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Re: David Wright got screwed
 

I can't get behind this performance/dollar criteria. Not just for the rookie contracts reasons already stated, but because it inherently punishes the best players in the league, those mostly likely to be valuable on the baseball field. And the definition from the BBWAA backs me up: "Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense." It clearly refers to value on the baseball field. I understand the bias that the term valuable brings, but in this case it clearly doesn't refer to monetary value.

Just out of curiosity though, who is NL MVP based on preformance per dollar?

1. HRam
2. Tulo
3. Brandon Phillips

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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vhawk, i dunno. the mvp award is a regular season award, so its actually 1st-4th, and not 1st-4th (in each league). giving the mvp award to a player on a team that doesnt make the playoffs is like giving the world series mvp to a player on the losing team imo.

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Why couldn't the most valuable player in the WS be on the losing team?

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again, because baseball is a team game, your goal is to win

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The Mets' collapse had absolutely nothing to do with David Wright. He was playing sensational baseball when it happened. It's not on David Wright in any way that other players failed in a game comprised of individual performances.

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agree 100%. But personally, unless the numbers are hugely different, id rather give it to a guy who's team made the playoffs.

I love David Wright in the most Heterosexual way possible. And he had an MVP-caliber season. And if the Mets didnt collapse, he may have won the MVP. But they did. And since the goal is to make the playoffs, and David Wright's team fell short, then he was not the most valuable player in the league.

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I think this is a toally fair way to think in most sports other than baseball. In basketball for example, you have five guys on the floor. If a guy puts up big time numbers but his team only wins 37 games, it's virtually impossible to justify giving him the MVP, regardless of how good his numbers are.

You could say the same for hockey, and possibly even football, despite the high number of players in an active roster, simply because there is so much teamwork involved, and for a player to be truly great he ought to make others around him better, and thus win.

Baseball just isn't like that though. When Jose Reyes is at the plate striking out or not running out ground balls, David Wright is sitting in the dugout. When Guillermo Mota is blowing up and costing the Mets leads late in games, Wright is on the field, but there isn't much he can do to get Mota to pitch better. Sure, there are some instances where teamwork comes in, like in rundowns, signal reading, hitting the cutoff man, etc, but by and large baseball is a team sport comprised of individual performances that are nowhere near as interrelated as they are in other sports. Not even close. So baseball is really an exception to your rule. It is perfectly conceivable (and common) for the best all around player in the league to play for a less than great team like the 2007 Mets.

If the stats are even or very close, then sure, you go with the guy on the playoff team versus the guy on the .500 team, but in the Rollins/Wright case the stats were not close.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20/20 > Mets

as a diehard Mets fan, the only thing Wright deserves to get is not beaten to death, which most of the team DOES deserve

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I am a Mets fan too, and I am sickened by how their season ended, but I'm not so myopic as to be unable to recognize greatness among [censored]. Wright had a great all-around season and was nasty down the stretch, more so than any other player in the NL in my opinion, and therefore he should have won the award. His team's meltdown had absolutely nothing to do with him.

Assume you have two large companies, company A and company B, both if which are competitors in the same industry. If company A's stock price appreciates 5 percent in a given year, and company B's stock price appreciates 10 percent in a given year, does that necessarily mean that the most valuable employee out of the two companies works at company B?

The answer is no, as I hope anyone can obviously determine, and the logic here can be applied to the discussion about whether an MVP must play for a playoff team. It is completely flawed thinking.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

also a mets fan and wright shuda gotten 2nd...do not understand how matt holliday didnt run away with this

but yes rollins did not even deserve 2nd place

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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Wright was the best all-around player in the NL in 2007.

That's all.

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It's called "Most Valuable Player". Not "best all-around player."

Of the top 10 vote-getters, three were paid less than DW. Per baseball-reference.com:

Wright finished 4th, and earned $1.25M in 2007
Fielder finished 3rd, and earned a paltry $415K
Howard finished 5th, and earned $900K
Hanley finished 10th, and earned $402K

I know it's the MLB, and $800K is peanuts, but one could argue that at least Fielder and Howard were more "valuable" than Wright, who was paid 3 times as much money.

Rollins and Holliday were a close 1, 2. Rollins earned $8M, and Holliday earned $4.4M.

There are several ways to define the "MVP" award, and most of them suck. The award should be terminated.

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This is the kind of non-standard reasoning I can honestly get behind. When I think value, this is what goes through my mind. Its not IMPOSSIBLE for guys like Arod to be the best value but its pretty hard.

You'd have to make some amendments though, you'd have to establish some kind of minimum salary or service time, because otherwise its guys like Arod and Pujols trying to compete with every single rookie and 1 year service time guy who has a pretty decent bustout year. they make 20 times as much money, they arent going to provide twenty times as much value very often.

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If you are going to get into the value per dollar angle to this analysis, it might also be worth looking at the player's salary as a percentage of his team's payroll. A $5 million a year guy who is only slightly less valuable than a guy making $9 million a year might not necessarily be more valuable to his team if the $5 million guy is playing for the Devil Rays and the $9 million guy is playing for the Yanks.

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Agreed.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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Why would it be any more unfair than punishing a guy for taking a big deal with a team that is unlikely to make the playoffs? Or punishing a guy for remaining loyal to his small-market team that developed him and that has little chance to make the playoffs?

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? I don't think either of those things are fair either, and I never said as such? I don't think Ichiro or Hanley Ramirez should be "punished" for playing in Seattle or Florida.

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I know you dont think either of those is fair. What I'm trying to demonstrate is that there isn't really any fair way to come up with a MVP in any team sport. We are currently incapable of 100% isolating one players contribution to ANYTHING, much less to winning. Every performance is subject to influences that are entirely out of any given players control. I agree that there are some aspects of the "financial value approach" that would unfairly punish certain players. I'm just trying to show that there is unfairness in EVERY possible system. And that the unfairness inherent in THIS system is unfairness that is actually fairly relevant. It is unfair to penalize a guy for his team not getting to the playoffs because not only can he not control that, but he is actively working against that and it occurs in spite of him. Being punished for tenacious negotiating is also unfair since these guys should have the right to get every penny, but at the very least, they are being punished (unfairly) for something that DIRECTLY negatively impacts their team.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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I can't get behind this performance/dollar criteria. Not just for the rookie contracts reasons already stated, but because it inherently punishes the best players in the league, those mostly likely to be valuable on the baseball field. And the definition from the BBWAA backs me up: "Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense." It clearly refers to value on the baseball field. I understand the bias that the term valuable brings, but in this case it clearly doesn't refer to monetary value.

Just out of curiosity though, who is NL MVP based on preformance per dollar?

1. HRam
2. Tulo
3. Brandon Phillips

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I was under the impression that we were allowed to hypothesize alternative selection criteria that are basically at our own discretion and are completely arbitrary...sort of like what the BBWA does. If we are required to stick to the rules laid out then of course its more simple....but who does that?!?!?

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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I know you dont think either of those is fair. What I'm trying to demonstrate is that there isn't really any fair way to come up with a MVP in any team sport. We are currently incapable of 100% isolating one players contribution to ANYTHING, much less to winning. Every performance is subject to influences that are entirely out of any given players control. I agree that there are some aspects of the "financial value approach" that would unfairly punish certain players. I'm just trying to show that there is unfairness in EVERY possible system. And that the unfairness inherent in THIS system is unfairness that is actually fairly relevant. It is unfair to penalize a guy for his team not getting to the playoffs because not only can he not control that, but he is actively working against that and it occurs in spite of him. Being punished for tenacious negotiating is also unfair since these guys should have the right to get every penny, but at the very least, they are being punished (unfairly) for something that DIRECTLY negatively impacts their team.

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If all players entered the league as free agents, I might have more interest in this kind of approach. I just think this idea would shift the arguments about voters from being too team-results-oriented to the award just being a "who has the most under-market contract" which doesn't really mean anything.

The current system is fine, if the writers would stick to the criteria. I don't even mind a player winning the MVP award if the stats are close. For instance

Player X .275/.380/.530, 20 SB/20 ATT, 30 HR, team didn't make playoffs

Player Y .285/.370/.515, 32 SB/32 ATT, 28 HR, team made playoffs.

I really wouldn't mind either player winning the award.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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also a mets fan and wright shuda gotten 2nd...do not understand how matt holliday didnt run away with this

but yes rollins did not even deserve 2nd place

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Obviously a strong argument for Holliday can be made: his hitting numbers were even better than Wright's, and his team made the playoffs (i've said my piece on the playoff vs non playoff team debate, but whatever).

However, Wright is a better defensive player, a better base runner, and if you adjust for park, their offensive numbers are similar.

Quite frankly, if you believe, as I do, that in baseball the team's overall success is of very little consequence to the MVP considerations, then Wright is a better candidate than Holliday.

In reading these posts, it seems like one thing virtually everyone agrees on is that Jimmy Rollins did not deserve this award.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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In reading these posts, it seems like one thing virtually everyone agrees on is that Jimmy Rollins did not deserve this award.

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...and that your OP was insane.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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In reading these posts, it seems like one thing virtually everyone agrees on is that Jimmy Rollins did not deserve this award.

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...and that your OP was insane.

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Which part(s) exactly?

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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In reading these posts, it seems like one thing virtually everyone agrees on is that Jimmy Rollins did not deserve this award.

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...and that your OP was insane.

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Which part(s) exactly?

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the whole thing basically

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

I found

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This voters got it very wrong this year.

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to be accurate.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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In reading these posts, it seems like one thing virtually everyone agrees on is that Jimmy Rollins did not deserve this award.

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...and that your OP was insane.

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Which part(s) exactly?

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the whole thing basically

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I don't see how making an argument that is well backed up by concrete facts is insane.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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In reading these posts, it seems like one thing virtually everyone agrees on is that Jimmy Rollins did not deserve this award.

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...and that your OP was insane.

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Which part(s) exactly?

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the whole thing basically

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I don't see how making an argument that is well backed up by concrete facts is insane.

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he wasnt the best, or even the 2nd best player this year.

Re: David Wright got screwed
 

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In reading these posts, it seems like one thing virtually everyone agrees on is that Jimmy Rollins did not deserve this award.

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...and that your OP was insane.

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Which part(s) exactly?

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the whole thing basically

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I don't see how making an argument that is well backed up by concrete facts is insane.

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he wasnt the best, or even the 2nd best player this year.

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Given his all-around contributions, I think he was clearly the best. And the numbers back me up.

If all you want to do is look at hitting, and not take into account base running, defense, and park adjustments, then you can say Wright wasn't the best.

Otherwise, it's Wright FTW.