Re: Michael Clayton
 

Hi Dom,
I saw this movie tonight on your recommendation. I saw a lot in it, on many different levels.

Warning ******* Possible Spoilers beyond this point *******

What I watched was a couple of characters grappling with the age old problem of man vs. machine.

By machine, I mean the apparatus, the system, that has been set up to govern human interaction. Both the players, Clayton, and Edens (wonder about the symbology of that name?) are willful participants in all the injustice that a cold and calculated legal system can dish out. They've made careers of it. They thrive on it. Edens suffers some kind of mental break (well, we think it's a mental break, but I don't think it is) that gives him a vision of the world that he has not been able to see in some time.

You see, I think that both men have lost their humanity along the way. It was somewhere back in a calculated decision they made some time ago. Edens just rediscovers his and decides that regardless of the rules of the system and the mechanations of the machine, he is going to take an unpredictable human action and to hell with the consequences. To me, he is the most vivid character in the whole film.

Clayton, on the other hand must die, figuratively, to figure out what Edens truly saw. The opening sequence is literally the moment of Claytons death. All his paradigms are gone after that point. Boundaries shifted, expanded. The ending of the movie is his human action. That is, payback against the machine. The whole machine, even the part that nutured him into what he became. From that moment on, he will have to define himself by standards that the rest of the world doesn't understand.

I identify with Clayton. This has been a year where many of my paradigms have fallen away.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a very adult movie, one that takes concentration to understand what's going on, as Gilroy does not spoon feed plot points, character flwas and motivations to us;

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you are telling us is that this will fail miserably at the box office?

[/ QUOTE ]

I caught the last show tonight (Tuesday) at the big 26-plex across the freeway from Hawaiian Gardens. Five minutes into the movie I'm the only one in the theater! For me this is perfect.

After the aforementioned five minutes some teenage couple comes in and sits down about midway back. A few minutes later I see them pause as they walk out looking at their tickets under the glow of the exit light. Guess they got the wrong screen. I watched the movie in total silence [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Loved it but one thing I think they got wrong is described below in white:

<font color="white">After they loop back to the scene where Clooney's car gets bombed he rushes back down to the car and throws his cell, ring and watch into the flaming wreckage. This supposedly is proof he died in the crash. Wouldn't there at least be bones left?</font>

~ Rick

Re: Michael Clayton
 

"both men have lost their humanity along the way."

Absolutely. My wife caught this in the fact that Clooney never wore a coat in the cold weather. Not until the last scene when he leaves the building. It was the first time he could feel anything.

A lot of posts in this thread, and not one person who didn't care for the movie. Not that we're the be-all-end-all of movie mavens here, but significiant, I think, that we're unanimous in liking it.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

Rick:

Possible explanation in white:
<font color="white">I think he felt the bad guys would just go up to the car to see what's what and might see his stuff and assume he was in the car. </font>

We got to the theater just about at starting time, in Century City mid-day on Sunday, where I thought it would be crowded. But it was only about 1/3 full. Still, I think this movie might have legs from good word-of-mouth.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

Honestly, my only problem with the movie was how "trixy" the fixers were.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
Possible explanation in white:
<font color="white">I think he felt the bad guys would just go up to the car to see what's what and might see his stuff and assume he was in the car. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Not really a spoiler so I'll say "Too bad he didn't have an order or half eaten ribs or chicken wings with him" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]
We got to the theater just about at starting time, in Century City mid-day on Sunday, where I thought it would be crowded. But it was only about 1/3 full. Still, I think this movie might have legs from good word-of-mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hopefully. Sometimes just the name doesn't help generate a good start. Michael Clayton sounds like some English gentleman affair to the average moviegoer. OTOH, I'll bet The Departed got a lot of people thinking they might be seeing a horror movie!

~ Rick

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rick:

Possible explanation in white:
<font color="white">I think he felt the bad guys would just go up to the car to see what's what and might see his stuff and assume he was in the car. </font>


[/ QUOTE ]

Another possible explanation in white:
<font color="white">Clayton could have (and rightly so) suspected that they had put some sort of tracking device on him, and he decided to get rid of all of the prime suspects for a bug (phone/watch/etc) </font>

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Dom,
I saw this movie tonight on your recommendation. I saw a lot in it, on many different levels.

Warning ******* Possible Spoilers beyond this point *******

What I watched was a couple of characters grappling with the age old problem of man vs. machine.

By machine, I mean the apparatus, the system, that has been set up to govern human interaction. Both the players, Clayton, and Edens (wonder about the symbology of that name?) are willful participants in all the injustice that a cold and calculated legal system can dish out. They've made careers of it. They thrive on it. Edens suffers some kind of mental break (well, we think it's a mental break, but I don't think it is) that gives him a vision of the world that he has not been able to see in some time.

You see, I think that both men have lost their humanity along the way. It was somewhere back in a calculated decision they made some time ago. Edens just rediscovers his and decides that regardless of the rules of the system and the mechanations of the machine, he is going to take an unpredictable human action and to hell with the consequences. To me, he is the most vivid character in the whole film.

Clayton, on the other hand must die, figuratively, to figure out what Edens truly saw. The opening sequence is literally the moment of Claytons death. All his paradigms are gone after that point. Boundaries shifted, expanded. The ending of the movie is his human action. That is, payback against the machine. The whole machine, even the part that nutured him into what he became. From that moment on, he will have to define himself by standards that the rest of the world doesn't understand.

I identify with Clayton. This has been a year where many of my paradigms have fallen away.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice take, Sub...

Re: Michael Clayton
 

4.5/5 stars. Awesome movie, I actually left the theatre feeling a bit depressed and sorry for some of the characters.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

Three days later, we were still talking about it. A truly memorable movie.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

Another vote for "fantastic" I actually want to see it again so I can get another "feel" for the movie. Reminded me somewhat of "American Beauty" for some reason. Different styles obviously, but both have so many different layers to them. The movie was a bit slow in the middle, but the first and last half an hour were fantastic.

Kind of sentimental, but I like how he "found" his family at the end (his two brothers).

Re: Michael Clayton
 

Rick, I agree with Andy's explanation. He just needs a bit of time. He already had his plan in mind, Clayton is no fool.

Damn, I need to see this again!!

Re: Michael Clayton
 

Saw it a while ago in the theater and I've watched it twice now on my laptop since then. Great movie.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

Saw it today; First-rate movie with first-rate performaces. General comment - Funny how easy it is to compromise your life away until there is nothing left but a hollow and vain existence.

This is definitaly a movie that sticks with you long after you leave the theater - the true measure of a worthwhile film.

-Zeno

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rick, I agree with Andy's explanation. He just needs a bit of time. He already had his plan in mind, Clayton is no fool.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, OK. I was being a nit.

Great movie; see it alone in a near empty theater like I did with nobody (like me) to ruin it for you by describing possible plot holes. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

Re: Michael Clayton
 

I loved the bag with 20+ french baguettes. That was a great touch there. You have to have seen a person in the midst of a manic episode to truly appreciate that. And the fridge with only champagne, a dozen jellos, and Betty Crocker was a nice touch as well.

The conversation about the "other option" was also very well done.

I give this movie an 8.5/10, and I am tough to please. The best movie I have seen so far this year.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]

Loved it but one thing I think they got wrong is described below in white:

<font color="white">After they loop back to the scene where Clooney's car gets bombed he rushes back down to the car and throws his cell, ring and watch into the flaming wreckage. This supposedly is proof he died in the crash. Wouldn't there at least be bones left?</font>

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]


I saw the movie and agree with everyone that it was brilliant. This one part did bother me quite a bit, though.

Two things would have been immediately apparent to the CSIs at the scene: 1., the car wasn't moving when it exploded, and 2., there are no human remains in the car.

So there wouldn't have been any official report that Clayton was killed in a car bomb... just that his car was bombed and there was no evidence that he was driving it at the time.

I was able to live with this contextual shortcoming while watching the film because it seems as though he only needed to pretend to be dead for a day or two, which is well within the normal police clusterfeck timeframe before anybody officially says anything.

Irieguy

Re: Michael Clayton
 

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> Sometimes just the name doesn't help generate a good start. Michael Clayton sounds like some English gentleman affair to the average moviegoer. OTOH, I'll bet The Departed got a lot of people thinking they might be seeing a horror movie!
</pre><hr />

Rick,

I agree. The movie The Madness of King George was originally titled The Madness of King George III in the play version. However, the change was made for the film because the producers feared American audiences may think they had missed parts I and II.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

One may produce a copious, regular evacuation every day of the week and still be a stranger to reason.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
One may produce a copious, regular evacuation every day of the week and still be a stranger to reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can somebody translate this for me please? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

PS Andy - Wish you guys would quote a part of the text you are responding to. With most people posting/reading in flat mode and not following threading it's so easy to get lost (or easy for me anyway!)

Re: Michael Clayton
 

It's a line from The Madness of King George.

And I don't care about the flat moders, flat mode sucks. Read in non-flat mode and it's hard to get lost.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I don't care about the flat moders, flat mode sucks. Read in non-flat mode and it's hard to get lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Andy. I mistook you as being part of that mid/high limit crowd that participated in a year or so old thread that seemed to imply anyone using threaded mode (instead of flat) as being some sort of not cool dope.

I used to use threaded when the forum was smaller and the texture of the threading was respected. These days I surf in flat and try to connect with partial quoting when I post.

~ Rick

Re: Michael Clayton
 

I am a not cool dope. I've always hated the quoting feature. When I want to quote I just copy the part I want to quote and put quotation marks around it. I see those quoted posts with forty-two quotes within quotes within quotes and I quickly move on. But I'm definitely a techno-peasant. Not quite the Luddite your friend is, but close.

I really said a terrible thing to him the other day. He was kvelling about his son and said to me, "Look my name is in the paper three times in one article." I replied, "Is it the obituary section?" Funny line, I thought, but mean-spirited. Please apologize for me.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And I don't care about the flat moders, flat mode sucks. Read in non-flat mode and it's hard to get lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Andy. I mistook you as being part of that mid/high limit crowd that participated in a year or so old thread that seemed to imply anyone using threaded mode (instead of flat) as being some sort of not cool dope.

I used to use threaded when the forum was smaller and the texture of the threading was respected. These days I surf in flat and try to connect with partial quoting when I post.

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

I do the same thing...

Re: Michael Clayton
 

Andy - Minutes after I opened this post a few hours ago my friend came over. Before our exercise walk/jacuzzi/cigar (good combo BTW) I told him there was an online apology to him and he made five wrong guesses (two were evil demons that have been the subject of previous discussions here on 2+2) . Since these were Commerce players I finally said "Your getting close.". Then in a puzzled tone he replies "Andy Fox" (only because he connects you with Commerce, me, and the Internet) and I go "yeah". He couldn't come up with any offense and hardly even noticed the aforementioned incident.

~ Rick

PS I did go to his son's high school water polo match yesterday. Both teams were undefeated and son's team won in a water romp. Friend did no kvelling since his son went scoreless. Special surreal experience for me since it was the first time on a high school campus in 35 years. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Michael Clayton
 

Just PMed you.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

I went to movies with a friend. Picked Clayton movie and was pleasantly suprised. Liked the manic depressive lawyer scenes.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

I just got back from it and thought it was very good. Definitly see a few oscar nods coming out of it.

Question with spoiler in white:

<font color="white"> Still unsure of how he knew exactly who was behind the murder/attempted. How did he know it was that women, it could have been a number of people. What did I miss? </font>

Re: Michael Clayton
 

I'll be the dissenting voice (of reason!) then: I liked it, it kept me engaged start to finish, appreciated the film-making a lot, but it didn't blow me away. Not much of a dissent, I know, but there you go.

*****Spoilers*****


I avoided this thread until I could see the movie, but several people have said it was great, so perhaps this was just the weight of expectations. Still, lots of little points kept me from sinking into the movie throughout the film. I got a sense that lots of stuff was left on the cutting room floor. Why the work on the relationship with the guy collecting the money he owed for the restaurant (both the photo in the early scene, and the comment about "just doing his job" in the late scene)? Why is it suddenly fine that people know Michael Clayton was killed, after all the effort to make Eden's death seem like suicide or an accident? For that matter, why the hell did Clayton stop there in the first place? Was that supposed to be a moment of epiphany? Sorry, not that convincing.

That said, Tilda Swinton was fantastic. Easily the best supporting role I've seen lately. Especially like the way they made her character sympathetic (such as the speech practice scenes, and shooting her in positions that emphasised her thickening waist and the way her bra cut into her back). The penultimate scene, where she's almost stuttering she's so overwhelmed, was incredible. It wasn't so much the banality of evil, for me, more that she was a frail person (remember the interview she gave early on, where she talked about feeling overwhelmed by the job when she first took it?), desperate to succeed, but without quite having the smarts or willpower necessary. Made her completely credible, in my eyes.

Also liked that Clooney spent the entire movie looking tired until the last scene, when he's suddenly clean-shaven and without the eye makeup again: it was clear it wasn't the late nights that were tiring him out, but the burden of guilt. Kind of gave away the reverse in that scene, but I'm a sucker for even moderately subtle visual indications of moral choices, so I'm willing to forgive. Thought he did a good job, but I have to judge him beside Tilda Swinton, and in that light it was only good, not great.

Have to diverge from the consensus on Tom Wilkinson as well - thought he did a fine job, especially the alley scene and the prison scene, but he also paled beside Swinton.

Music was good too, lots of cello, which usually works for me. Cinematography was appropriate, never flashy and mostly aiding the grey tone.

I think the problem was that every scene that didn't include Swinton left me thinking "yup, got that, on to the next scene now."

So, I liked it, it was ok, but I suspect I would have preferred it as a book.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

"why the hell did Clayton stop there in the first place? Was that supposed to be a moment of epiphany?"

The horses reminded him of the picture from his son's book.

If you enjoy Swinton, try The Deep End. Wonderful performance.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be the dissenting voice (of reason!) then: I liked it, it kept me engaged start to finish, appreciated the film-making a lot, but it didn't blow me away. Not much of a dissent, I know, but there you go.

*****Spoilers*****


I avoided this thread until I could see the movie, but several people have said it was great, so perhaps this was just the weight of expectations. Still, lots of little points kept me from sinking into the movie throughout the film. I got a sense that lots of stuff was left on the cutting room floor. Why the work on the relationship with the guy collecting the money he owed for the restaurant (both the photo in the early scene, and the comment about "just doing his job" in the late scene)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think is to both show Clayton's attempt at being respectable (owning a restaurant) while failing at it (getting the money to open it from a loanshark). I really liked how it dramatized that dichotomous nature he was struggling with.

Why is it suddenly fine that people know Michael Clayton was killed, after all the effort to make Eden's death seem like suicide or an accident?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eden was lead counsel for the plaintiffs, and thus a unnatural death would bring some suspicion onto the defendants. Clayton had nothing to do with it the case (at least in the eyes of the law), so it wouldn't matter if he was murdered or not.

[ QUOTE ]

For that matter, why the hell did Clayton stop there in the first place? Was that supposed to be a moment of epiphany? Sorry, not that convincing.


[/ QUOTE ]

[b]He stopped his car because the scene reminded him of the horse on the cover of his son's book - and the one Eden had in his apartment.


liked your thoughts on the picture, though...

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think is to both show Clayton's attempt at being respectable (owning a restaurant) while failing at it (getting the money to open it from a loanshark). I really liked how it dramatized that dichotomous nature he was struggling with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the restaurant itself, that whole subplot worked well at presaging his mid-life crisis. There were a couple of cues that he had a larger relationship with the man collecting the money for his loan shark though - the line "just doing my job" in their last scene, indicating Clayton's opinion of him mattered to the collector, and, more ambiguously, a quick shot just after their first scene together where Clayton, in his apartment or office, reached down to pick up a phone in front of a picture of what I thought at the time was his son and the collector sitting together. Later, when we met his father, who looked very similar to the collector, I thought it must have actually been a photo of his father and his son, but the timing was deliberate, and the 1-second long shot was both completely unnecessary to the scene, and clearly emphasised the picture.

[ QUOTE ]
Eden was lead counsel for the plaintiffs, and thus a unnatural death would bring some suspicion onto the defendants. Clayton had nothing to do with it the case (at least in the eyes of the law), so it wouldn't matter if he was murdered or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clayton had met with Swinton's character two days or so before, and was known to be working on the case by people in his firm (who weren't in on the hit, and as far as Swinton knew would be pissed she killed him). He'd also been interacting with the police over another death the previous day, and had a brother who was a cop (as Swinton knew). Seems more than enough to cause suspicion to me.

[ QUOTE ]
He stopped his car because the scene reminded him of the horse on the cover of his son's book - and the one Eden had in his apartment.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and he drove there as fast as he could, taking at high speed a turnoff from the main road that was so small the car following him didn't see it. I appreciate the connection to the illustration in the book, but it didn't make it a credible action for him to take, for me, especially given it's fortuitous timing, and the tightness of the rest of the movie. The only thing that makes it vaguely viable for me is the clear allusion to getting off the track he's on being the only thing that will save his life.

Like I said, none of them are big things, and certainly none ruin the movie, but there were enough of them, and they contrasted enough with parts that did the same things very well, that they jarred a little.

[ QUOTE ]
If you enjoy Swinton, try The Deep End. Wonderful performance.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was the beginning of my love affair with Tilda. Looking forward to her both as Lady MacBeth and in the Coen brothers next film.

Re: Michael Clayton
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clayton had met with Swinton's character two days or so before, and was known to be working on the case by people in his firm.

[/ QUOTE ]

He had just been given $80k bonus and 3-year contract by his own firm. That wasn't a bait-and-switch to fool him into his car where his demise awaited. It made no sense that Kenner, Bach, &amp; Ledeen be in on it. Who else was in play? The one who stood central underneath Don Jefferies' mentorship, next to the signature that he DID have a lead on, that had a personal connection to Michael Clayton.

3-bet that [censored] all day. Plot hole? Yes, but it's cool to have to look at it through Clayton's eyes to see what the logical play is. If you watch carefully, his "solution" also pays off his brother's debt to the cop whom had to bury the seal - - he gets the collar of Tilda Swinton's Karen Crowder.

For credit, give the depth, complexity and intelligence to Gilroy's/Clooney's Michael Clayton. Just takes a while see imo...