Two Plus Two Newer Archives - Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

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- - Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=661)

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

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Pot is ~1800, we have somewhere around 2k, so I think that we should bet 1k (and call a push).

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Hero has t1640, slightly less than the pot (1810). Do you still bet 1K or do you push?

What hands do you see calling Hero here that he beats? A9? 67? 88? Seems like an odd way to play those hands on the turn.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

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Pot is ~1800, we have somewhere around 2k, so I think that we should bet 1k (and call a push).

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Hero has t1640, slightly less than the pot (1810). Do you still bet 1K or do you push?

What hands do you see calling Hero here that he beats? A9? 67? 88? Seems like an odd way to play those hands on the turn.

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haven't you ever played in these things? seems like a standard way for most players to play those hands on the turn (and pay off on the river).

I still bet 1k on the river.

edit: actually, thinking about it...I think I want to bet a little less on the river to widen the range of hands that call to include smaller one pair hands like T9, 89, 88, all queens. The result will be the same vs. a flush and maybe we lose less w/ hands that are ahead of us, but afraid to bet. I think something like 750-800 is better.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

several people have made similar arguments:

- he played the rest of the hand like a donkey.
- only a donkey would check a made flush on the river.
- so we should bet the river.

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

i think there are also stupidly played made hands that are checking out of an odd fear of a flush. e.g., 68, 99, q9, qq, etc.

i may miss some value when i have the opportunity to check behind on a scary river, but i'm checking here.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

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I actually want to push. From villain's play on this hand so far, I believe him to be a donkey. I don't see a donkey checking this river with a two pair or better, so I think we're ahead. There's no reason to not to bet when we're ahead, and the pot's about the size of our stack, so I'm pushing.

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You think one pair hands are calling this push?

Are you insane?

fwiw I am betting approximately 600

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

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- he played the rest of the hand like a donkey.
- only a donkey would check a made flush on the river.
- so we should bet the river.

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I don't think many donkeys check a flush here.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

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I don't think many donkeys check a flush here.

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I have seen donkeys go check call on the most powerful draws and when they hit, they check again hoping to trap or something. Trust me, he is more than capable of having a made flush here.

Yes, betting 600 will get a call from flushes, and possibly a checkraise (assuming he is really that good of a player to move us off of bottom two or he really does have the nuts), but betting 600 also assures a call from a wide range of one pair hands and one pair + missed draw hands that might think something is suspicious and call. Furthermore we could possibly move villain off of a better hand by making this "value bet".

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

The villian's check here isn't a made flush in my opinion.

I think the villian has given up on his hand and would have bet out with a made flush or straight. He can't be looking to c/r a flush.

I think made hands are betting here 100% of the time.

We can safely bet 1/3-1/2 pot and either get called by A9x or AQx or pick up the hand uncontested. I think a c/r is unlikely but I'm calling based on my previous statement that made hands are betting out.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

1) What do you think the villain has?

Wow, another interesting dilemma. Well, I think Villian has middle cards. Something along the lines of pair + draw (draw that didn't get there).

There's a slight possibility Villian has the made straight or the flush now, but his line has been quite peculiar for this type of hand.

2) Do you check or bet (and if so, how much)? If you bet anything less than all-in, what's your plan if check-raised? Obviously explain your reasoning for your action.

Villian called our pre-flop raise out of position. The flop didn't appear to help our hand, from Villians perspective.

He check min-raised us. He might have had a piece of the flop and thought we whiffed, but was worried we might be on an overpair that currently had his pair + draw beat, so he didn't want to be too large and commit too many chips. If he's a donk, he was hoping we'd give the pot to him right there. If he's a thinking player, it might have been a move to gain info, or perhaps to build a pot and/or tick us off and cause us to push against his made hand.

The turn he checks, and it's provided him no apparent help. We bet a significant portion of the pot, and he just calls? The river now brings some of Villians potential draws to the forefront. He may have made his straight or his flush.

But once again, he's checked. Possibly because we've continued being the agressor in this hand and shown that we like our hand. He may be figuring that we're going to fire another bullet into his strong hand on the river.

He sure has committed a lot of chips already though. He may be a donk/calling station, and just not know correct strategy. His play seems to indicate that, or some kind of monster hand.

He may have made his flush or straight, but fear we've got the A/K of [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and have him beat.

Whatever the case, I really don't care what he might have at this point. While I might be able to accumulate more chips from him here, the possibility of being check-raised and having to dump our hand and not see his just isn't worth it. There's 1800 chips in the pot, he's checked and it makes perfect sense to check-behind and see what the results are.

Re: Play a Hand With the Masters #3 River

Villain's line makes no sense for a flush draw the small raise, call on the turn without proper odds, and now check on the river when the draw got there. Villain's line makes no sense for two pair, set, flopped straight, or over pair either because you'd think they would have bet or check-raised the turn. Villain really looks like a donkey that is calling down with TT/JJ/A9/AQ/KQ type hands. So you value bet the river about 900 and call a push.