Re: Live 6/12: A8 flops a gutter and goes to war
 

Right. I get that it's not for value, I just don't think you're going to get the desired result. The players you have described are quite willing to put in two cold with very little. I also don't think you get a free card on the turn often enough to justify the raise.

Re: Live 6/12: A8 flops a gutter and goes to war
 

So what do we do if an A hits on the turn? Are we calling down single bets? Thanks to our weak starting hand, we're behind 7 Ace kickers (AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9, A6 and A5, although we do have outs), chopping with one (A8) and only ahead of 4 (A7, A4, A3 and A2, which all have lottsa outs to chop or win). If we hadda limited our hand to >= AT, we'd be behind 6 (AK, AQ, AJ, A9, A6, A5), chopping with one (AT) and ahead of 5 (A8, A7, A4, A3 and A2). [ETA: Yes, I know I haven't explicitly counted all the exact combos exactly, but the general idea is there.] IMO, this is quite a difference (and leads me to count not anywhere near 2 outs for an A).

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