Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

hmm I raise PF the first time to me..

This is very interesting hand and really I don't see us being ahead here like ever even w/ top 2, but the pot is huge. I think it's a call and just river the Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

grunching...

Such a huge pot, and 4 players.

UTG has been calling all day long until the turn. Even he's an idiot, but I would still give him credit for holding something strong. Can't see him holding AK or QQ, or else he would have been playing strong on the flop. maybe a :Spade: suited connector that had made the flush.

BB and MP3 most prob holding some AA, KK, but more chance of MP3 holding KK, cos he seemed to just call on the flop when faced against BB's 3-bet.

You're facing 19.7:2, accounting for implied odds, which you can at least get 3 bets on the river. If a Js hits, you're going to collect more bets.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

The first flop call is a lot closer than it looks like. BB donking out makes me put him on TT+, maybe AsKs. We know it's going to be raised behind us since we know MP3 holds AA-KK. Our best case scnario is that both of them hold AA-KK(because otherwise our outs will be tainted), but then it will be at least 3-bets. I can't make an other conclusion than that we need to fold the flop to the first donk


Turn is also close. There will often be a hand like QQ-JJ
out there so we don't have 4 outs on average. n the other hand I think MP3 will never fold and BB will rarely 3-bet so we are often getting 23:2. We will get ~4bb on the river if we spike it. 13.5:1. Hmmm close one. I hostly beleive foldng is slightly better, but I would probably peel.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

I'd probably fold to the raise and reraise preflop. I'd probably fold again to the raise and reraise on the flop.

On the turn, I think the pot's now too big to fold and we have to chase our 4-outer. I can't really see us being ahead, even with top two, so I'm hoping for a good river. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

When it comes back 3-bet preflop, and odds are that there will be a cap behind us, I'll fold this anyday. Especially against MP3s range...

When the flop comes back 3-bet, I'll fold for the same reasons as above. Top pair just isn't good enough...

On the turn, we now have odds to chase, but unless we hit a Q or J, this needs to be folded on the river ASAP. And I'm really not sure if we still have 4 outs...

This is one of those hands that can cause some headaches. These can be avoided by folding preflop... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

Those of you advocating a pf-raise the first time in, what are your reasons for this? Why do you favor it over also limping?


Hoping to keep it 3-way, and isolate idiot-UTG later, buy button? Hoping to get cold-calls and build a huge pot for good multiway hand?


We at least can't be banking on MP3 to cold-call much (or maybe we actually can because of his stats, not raising much but still playing top hands).

I just thought that getting a limper or two behind and usually the both blinds in would also build a nice pot for our multiway hand.

Re: top two in huge pre-flop capped pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you advocating a pf-raise the first time in, what are your reasons for this? Why do you favor it over also limping?


Hoping to keep it 3-way, and isolate idiot-UTG later, buy button? Hoping to get cold-calls and build a huge pot for good multiway hand?


We at least can't be banking on MP3 to cold-call much (or maybe we actually can because of his stats, not raising much but still playing top hands).

I just thought that getting a limper or two behind and usually the both blinds in would also build a nice pot for our multiway hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

limping is ok, but imho raising can be better, depending on the table. with tight ppl behind you, i'd rather have position against 2 poor players. with loose ppl behind you, they'll probably call 2 anyway. so raising can be good either way. QJs is a textbook multiway hand, but it also has value in non-multiway situations vs loose players. if you flop a pair, you're likely going to win. so, raising is not really an isolation play on utg (it does help that he's a loose, poor player) but is basically a value raise vs their holdings.