Re: need stars 25/50NL datamine
 

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It's always been the policy of 2p2 that T&C for the poker sites does not define T&C for 2p2. For instance, if some site decided that statistics tracking of your own game was against their T&C, that wouldn't make it immoral, just illegal.

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Wait, what?

I thought for instance we didn't discuss "how to make a bot" bcasue bots are breaching all sites T&C.

I always thought the guideline was to pretty much follow sites T&C... is this wrong?

Another example was a post a while ago (Internet Bonuses I think) "How can I make multiple accounts to scam PPA bonusses?", which IIRC was laoced after a few "gtfo scammer" responses.

I kinda see requests for how to datamine Stars in the same light... maybe I should reconsider my position?

Please clarify what you mean by this, Sam.

TY,

dave.

Re: need stars 25/50NL datamine
 

There are lots of things that intersect both our running definition of "immoral" and the sites' definition of "illegal". (And of course here I just mean against THEIR rules, not any actual laws.)

Using bots masquerading as players is one of those cases. I wouldn't be surprised if the policy in the Internet Bonus forum is that scamming internet bonuses is disallowed, too. I remember multiple-accounting in tournaments is on the list, too.

Sorry, I know it's a hard line to draw. Last time we discussed it, lending databases was deemed ok by the reds wrt 2p2. It's information freely available to the players, and doesn't constitute actual collusion.

Re: need stars 25/50NL datamine
 

so...
about those screen shots....

??

oh and mods: if I ask for anything against the rules, feel free to berate me as you feel nec but I usually get the hint the first time. I feel like lurking here for a bit.

Re: need stars 25/50NL datamine
 

I'm kinda with dave, we really shouldn't condone breaking T&Cs of any site. It's pretty difficult to mantain any moral high ground over scammers/botters/cheats etc if you are breaking the rules. I really don't see how breaking one T&C is OK, but breaking another is wrong.

Re: need stars 25/50NL datamine
 

LOLOLOLOL.... Are you guys joking or what. You actually care what the sites deem approriate??? LOLOLOLOL..... You are following the guidance of organizations that believe it's okay for 1000 people to play one hand as a team, but can't swap databases..... LOLOLOLOL.... PLEASE DON'T EVER USE POKERSITES AND MORALS IN THE SAME SENTENCE PLEASE.

Re: need stars 25/50NL datamine
 

Thats really not a well constructed defence.

Without regulation, the T&Cs of the pokersites are the only line we have to divide the good from the bad. If you break one T&C you are at the very least in a moral grey-area, and it becomes very difficult to have any recourse to admonish others about breaking the T&Cs.

Re: need stars 25/50NL datamine
 

[ QUOTE ]
I kinda see requests for how to datamine Stars in the same light... maybe I should reconsider my position?

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datamining Stars <<<<<<<<<<<<&l t;<<<<< sharing own databases

Because if you share your databases you collect hole cards What is something you won't see in data mined hands. And something that is banned by all poker rooms (with more than 5 players).



So if the mod's approach is like that you should really release that PokerStars Table Opener (which I (and many others) want only for playing purposes).



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I know it's a hard line to draw.

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line is this: ------------------------
line isn't this: ^-/^^^\_____/\/\^------/\/
you ban many things that is way more border-line than that. But it's yours responsibility.

Re: need stars 25/50NL datamine
 

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Because if you share your databases you collect hole cards What is something you won't see in data mined hands.

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If a player gets to showdown in a datamined hand you can see what they had though...

Re: need stars 25/50NL datamine
 

Why is this an issue?
Consider this: you are playing at a six-person table and the other five players at that table are using a shared database program. After each hand, they are able to see what cards every other player (except you) had. Do you want to play at that table?

but as I said if mods want to allow just this breaking rules... so be it. But they should review other banned issues then.

edit// am I the only one who thinks like that when it comes to blind defense: "hmm I'm easy target but is he really going to challenge that maniac next to me with mediocre hand"? That explains what's that issue.

Re: need stars 25/50NL datamine
 

Sam,

Maybe it is time to revisit this issue between mods / reds. Or maybe a post in ATF?

To me, this seems (taken to extremes) like "2p2 Publishing LLC suggests you ignore of Pokersite X's T&C 2 & 5 but not 1,3 or 4.

E.G. Botting / multi accounting / scamming = do not speak, under threat of ban - however, on te rare sites that otright ban such - datamining / sharing databases are fine with us.

You are right it is a fine line to walk.. thinks like pankwandu's WSEX namegrabber are obviously not in agreement with WSEX T&C, yet the thread was allowed to run.

Stigmata says it best:

[ QUOTE ]

We really shouldn't condone breaking T&Cs of any site. It's pretty difficult to maintain any moral high ground over scammers/botters/cheats etc if you are breaking the rules. I really don't see how breaking one T&C is OK, but breaking another is wrong.


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Say for example Ray Bonnert(sp?) got his "Honest Hold'em" (o whatever i was called) site up and running. Would the existence of a site that openly allowed botting / teaming etc. then mean 2p2 Software forum should allow discussions of such on PokerStars / FTP etc.?


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If a player gets to showdown in a datamined hand you can see what they had though...


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Not on Stars. You must be at the table to see mucked hands at showdown in the HH files.


Sam,

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Last time we discussed it, lending databases was deemed ok by the reds wrt 2p2. It's information freely available to the players, and doesn't constitute actual collusion.

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Please revisit this issue with the reds.

It is certainly breaking T&C on most sites, and on certain sites (Stars) includes information not otherwise available.


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So if the mod's approach is like that you should really release that PokerStars Table Opener (which I (and many others) want only for playing purposes).


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Believe me, I'd love to release it... and it is certainly not the 2p2 or Stars T&C preventing me from doing so.... it is the fact that when combined with an "illegal" Stars miner, it produces a fully automated system capable of mining every stars game with ~99% coverage.

Given how dependant on AHK I have become for my playing, I fear creating ultimate datamining power via AHK presents a not-insignificant risk of Stars banny any and all AHK... a situation I would be very sad to see [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Again, again taken to an extreme - would the reds be happy with someone posting datamined hands of every Stars ring game on here? 2+2 forums becoming known as *the place* for breaking one of Stars T&C?

Sorry, a bit ranty [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

dave.