Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bing Bang

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like some horrible experiment involving Bing Crosby doing porn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was the Italian version of cosmic creation.

~ Rick

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

If there's a "big crunch" in the future, would you consider that a random event?

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there's a "big crunch" in the future, would you consider that a random event?

[/ QUOTE ]

no

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
thought it was the Italian version of cosmic creation.

[/ QUOTE ]

that would be Badda Bing Bang

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there's a "big crunch" in the future, would you consider that a random event?

[/ QUOTE ]

no

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you probably shouldn't consider the BB a random event, either. The BB and the BC are simply "singular" events that bound the state of the universe. The only substantial difference would presumably be that the BB is associated with low entropy, and the BC a high entropy (which gives rise to our perception of a time flow from the past to the future).

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We might still be in that black hole...

[/ QUOTE ]

not the kind described by most scientists

[ QUOTE ]
the Universe might not be able to escape (gavitationally) from itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

a possibility

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's better to realize that since there were no laws of physics before the BB (as you point out), you cannot say what caused it, if anything

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this unless we make a few assumptions, Lets assume that there was indeed a singularity (black hole) before the big bang occurred. Lets assume that there was an expansion of which we are experiencing. Now finally lets assume that there was a cause of the big bang.Since we could not know the cause as you point out would that lead to a logical conclusion the the big bang was truly a random physical event. If there was a God would it be possible for him to know the cause of the big bang since there were n laws of physics at the time?

pokervintage

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If there were a physical event that is both truly random AND not related to quantum mechanics, then it would mean science got something wrong.

Take flipping a coin. It seems random because we accept a certain degree of ignorance. We don't know the precise dimensions and mass of the coin. We don't know the precise amount of force that will be applied in the flipping action. We don't know how much wind resistance there will be, etc. All of these things appear to behave according to known laws of physics. If all of those variables were known, and all those laws of physics are correct, then all the information about the coin flip can be calculated and predicted. If the coin flip is truly random then, it must be that those laws of physics were wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

The laws of physics wouldn't be "wrong" they would be right for a huge percentage of cases and research would be done to figure out the edge cases where they don't work. See Einstein and Newtonian physics.

You can't take quantum out of the equations you are talking about because at a certain point the uncertaintanty principle comes into play. So you can't know all the variables involved in the equation. I'm also thinking chaos theory is going to give you a problem as well, see the experiments to describe a dripping faucet or with convection currents.

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes disagrees with that. Surely logic was tremendously important to him as a mathematician, yet he also accepted that God could defy logic. To Descartes, God truly was without limits I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Descartes is so 1600s.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) If Descartes disagrees, how is that relevant to what I said?

B) What makes you think he disagrees. He makes arguments which involve premises like 'God cannot decieve me if, etc. etc. ' I would like to know why you attribute the belief that God can achieve the logically impossible to Descartes?

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

The Big Bang, it's one thing

Re: Was the Bing Bang a Random event?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Meh, most people (philosopher types) just accept that there on limits on God if he exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Philosopher and mathematician René Descartes disagrees with that. Surely logic was tremendously important to him as a mathematician, yet he also accepted that God could defy logic. To Descartes, God truly was without limits I believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Descartes is so 1600s.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) If Descartes disagrees, how is that relevant to what I said?

B) What makes you think he disagrees. He makes arguments which involve premises like 'God cannot decieve me if, etc. etc. ' I would like to know why you attribute the belief that God can achieve the logically impossible to Descartes?

[/ QUOTE ]

A) You mentioned that most "philosopher types" accept the idea, so I pointed to a very prominent example of a "philosopher type" who does not. It doesn't make it right or wrong, but I think it's especially interesting considering Descartes would have needed a very strong handle on logic in order to do his mathematical work.

B)Wikipedia told me, so it must be true, right?