Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
MJ...I dont know that I agree with most of what youve said.

Your raise preflop to isolate and to try and create some dead money. SB is still getting bad odds to call with most hands. The will be less willing to repop into 2-3 people.

k9s is a pretty automatic button raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you raise K9s on the button when it's folded to you, a big part of your value is when the blinds give up without a fight. There's no way you can win this hand without seeing a flop.

I agree that I would usually raise k9s in this spot. I'd probably raise K8s and perhaps K7s. But not raising K9s is just not a big mistake here, and it's not the interesting part of the hand. I think that raising the turn here is a much larger mistake than failing to raise preflop, so we're doing the OP a disservice by just saying "raise preflop" and not discussing what his OP was about.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's a big difference between playing HU and 4-handed on the flop, and I think it's a big difference between having a donk and a raise before I act on flop instead of one check. Also when c/r:d on flop you don't need to 3-bet. Since you are in position you can wait and see the turn card and then decide if you want to call down or raise. Also you get some FE from a raise that can be useful if you get it HU with a limper.

I think the difference between overlimping and raising preflop in this situation is huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the flop actions mean different things when you're HU or 4 handed. But a hand like K9s plays fine both HU against a limper, 4 handed in a limped pot, or 3 handed in a raised pot with the BB coming along for one more bet. It's not like we're playing a hand like A8o that much prefers to play HU, or failing to raise a hand like AJs that misses so much value by just overcalling. I really don't understand why failing to raise preflop makes a huge difference.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

King high has a lot more showdown ability in a heads up pot as opposed to 4 handed. Havent done the math, but I would assume it even have more value 3 handed than 4 handed for obvious reasons.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

I raise preflop here without thinking. I'd likely do the same with K8s and fold K7s.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

Preflop, I'd raise down to K6s here. On the turn, a raise is breakeven vs a range of K4,94s,44,K9 assuming he doesnt 3 bet K4 and 94. Vs an unknown, i'd just go into call down mode because im a nit. I think its pretty close though because there are a lot of variables that can swing this to a raise.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

I agree that i should have raised preflop.
I use some of the starting hand charts linked from the FAQ of this forum and I misremembered K9s, i was thinking it was one of those hands that fell into Raise in unopened pot otherwise overlimp.

Anyway. Results:

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP caps</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero calls</font>

River: (12.50 BB) 10[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero calls</font>

Results:
Final pot 14.5 BB

Hero shows 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
MP Shows A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I really didn't have a ton of info on MP except he hadn't shown too much aggression in the past. That is part of why i assumed he had me beat here. My apologies for not including that in the OP. Lastly, AA was not even in the range of hands i had him on. Ironically if i had raised preflop i am assuming that Villian would have 3 bet me preflop.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

He probably would have 3bet you preflop which would have been better for you...it would have allowed you to narrow down his range some since limp/3bet is a powerful play.

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

narrow down his range after he limp/3bet and goes nuts on the flop = KK?

j/k
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

honestly

when people limp aa/kk and go nuts postflop w/ 0% chance of having the best hand, that's the bst moment for me. i just love it. it is so rewarding. nice hand. turn raise is standard because only kk/99 beat you and you turned the best card in the deck. god i love when this happens. hopefull it happens to me a lot next time i play, 12 hours from now,

Re: How agressive to get with 2 pair?
 

[ QUOTE ]
narrow down his range after he limp/3bet and goes nuts on the flop = KK?

j/k
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

haha

I think you could narrow a limp/3bet from a decent player down to AA,AK,KK,QQ type hands and go from there...

If he has KK exactly...well that just sucks haha.